ALMA sees old galaxies before they merged. two ways to look back into the past?

Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by nebel, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. nebel

    We have to take the great man's word for it. Then of course the word "nothing" has been redefined by Cosmologists. and
    Hawking himself is well known with the " Hawking" radiation to have reversed the idea of an all swallowing, never relinquishing Black
    Hole to one that slowly fades away.
    It could be argued that the man is humble enough to always be open to change his views from on the pre-Bang condition too. A white paper on White Holes coming too?

    Quote of S.H. in the article:
    "One can regard imaginary and real time as beginning at the South Pole, which is a smooth point of space-time where the normal laws of physics hold. There is nothing south of the South Pole, so there was nothing around before the Big Bang," Hawking said.

    To say there is "nothing below the South Pole" is inviting protests from many. Starting from the hole in the Ozone layer, and the Sunshine they enjoyed there, and now will become ours' in the northern hemisphere.
    There is a half a universe below the South Pole.( only 1/4 we can see) so, perhaps the man is giving us a hint with that metaphor.
    There is no such thing as nothing below the South Pole. two negatives. I do not like to be too negative about the great work shop that could have existed before the Big Beginning., and is thill out there, all around us in the future of timespace.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
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  3. nebel

    I am even simpler, and accept the point, or instant, rather than area(era)? in time of the Big Beginning as a reasonable end projection of the Hubble curve. Why do you call it the Catholic egg theory? perhaps even B. Graham, RIP, and admirers liked the creation angle too?
    The what come first, chicken or [cosmic] egg question has been solved for them too: so, which came first??: answer:
    the Rooster , or stand-in whatever the chosen religion has to offer.
    I prefer to use the Expression B Beginning, rather than Hoyle's jesting "bang" . Even the following hyper /super speed of light inflation suggestm a loud shockwave following in its wake. The expanding universe spares us all that trauma, so
    the Expanding Sphere membrane model, where all matter is placed at equal distance in time from the point of beginning, accommodates all scenarios, as long it gives us plenty of stable time in the past to come from, and in the future to move into. timespace.
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  5. nebel

    can you elaborate on that? do you have a link for the whole text, transcript or of the exchange? what "non existence" are we thinking of here?
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Looks a lot like the Fibonacci sequence to me. (intended as a little aside)
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    No, it was my own language, based on the fact that there is no evidence of an existing god prior to the Beginning, and still enduring. Yet this metaphorical abstraction is purported to have imagination and motive, which would require sentience.
    Hence the question.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    From wiki...after listing various cultures who also had the cosmic egg idea other than and before the church...
    Where it says concept it is talking about the cosmic egg concept....

    The concept was resurrected by modern science in the 1930s and explored by theoreticians during the following two decades. The idea comes from a perceived need to reconcile Edwin Hubble's observation of an expanding universe (which was also predicted from Einstein's equations of general relativity by Alexander Friedmann) with the notion that the universe must be eternally old. Current cosmological models maintain that 13.8 billion years ago, the entire mass of the universe was compressed into a gravitational singularity, the so-called cosmic egg, from which it expanded to its current state (following the Big Bang).

    Georges Lemaitre proposed in 1927 that the cosmos originated from what he called the primeval atom.

    In the late 1940s, George Gamow's assistant cosmological researcher Ralph Alpher, proposed the name ylem for the primordial substance that existed between the big crunch of the previous universe and the big bang of our own universe.

    End of wiki...

    Now wiki is written by someone and it may be wrong ..dont forget that.

    I thought however Einstein's equations however did not predict an expanding universe because he specifically included a "cosmological constant" which he included to arrive at a static universe.

    He later said to include such was his biggest blunder however I believe it was his greatest insite...why because thst would support my preferred view...its called cherry picking.

    In other words I like steady state and so did Dr Einstein (and of course I leave out whete he changed his position) ☺

    However he felt the need to change his approach after Hubble made his observations of an expanding Universe.

    Well I like to believe there was no begining.

    I like the now cast aside steady state concept...and that brings only scorn from everyone neither fits the cosmology of religions nor does it fit the current scientific model of cosmology.

    But if 80% of the world can believe in religion I should be entitled to believe what I like...but really in truth I dont go past "I really dont know" and certainly would not bet the house on religion or big bang because although our science is sound it could be wrong.

    And I certainly feel uncomfortable when, as I saw on a utube clip today, when someone says we know what happened a split second after the big bang..sure the maths says that but for goodness sake to talk about it in such absolute terms is really putting a lot of faith in one being was ages ago, and the basis comes from observations that depend on measuring exploding stars to measure expansion millions of and in some cases billions of light years distant.
    ..anyways I do admit it is our best model but I really doubt if we are near working out what took place billions of years ago.

    To me it makes as much sense to think the universe has always been around as it does that it was somehow created.

    And there is some support for the concept of a cycle. .big bang big crunch big bang etc..but really that can only be speculation.
    But that should make everyone happy..even me..although maybe not the church.

    Folk dont like you to say our cosmology is speculative and say ..what you dispute science I dont dispute science and feel like reminding them that science often claims not to prove anything and it is subject to change...that seems forgotten when we talk big bang...and that makes me uncomfortable.


    You have an idea...its nice but it is only an would be wise not to marry it...and remember our ideas and opinions we treat like our children. .they can never be wrong in our eyes and we love them and blind to their faults.

    Anyways I post here to help keep your thread alive because I sense you think folk are taking your idea to if I can help make you happy I will post my rambling thereby leaving you room to show your baby and let me rattle on ...

    Its a nice baby you should be proud I hope it grows up to be a theory one day.

  10. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    And from wiki...

    Ylem is a term that was used by George Gamow, his student Ralph Alpher, and their associates in the late 1940s for a hypothetical original substance or condensed state of matter, which became subatomic particles and elements as we understand them today. The term ylem was actually resuscitated (it appears in Webster's Second "the first substance from which the elements were supposed to have been formed") by Ralph Alpher.[1]

    In modern understanding, the "ylem" described as by Gamow was the primordial plasma, formed in baryogenesis, which underwent Big Bang nucleosynthesis and was opaque to radiation. Recombination of the charged plasma into neutral atoms made the Universe transparent at the age of 380,000 years, and the radiation released is still observable as cosmic microwave background radiation.

    End of wiki.

    So what do you think about all that?

  11. nebel

    Write4U said:
    Can there be such a thing as a non-existence having "imagination" without being sentient?
    It's a subjective statement.

    that what it sounded like, a reference not only to timespace before the BB, but sentient being.
    If there is such, and there is a 50/50 wager on it, surely she would have good means to let us know. failing that, we are free to work it out.
    AE and family called it Wirklichkeit reality in old german, "wirk" from work, something you have to work out ourselves. work keeps you young. really.

    here is another spiral with tangent "landings, mergers". part of the answer why some allege that look back time could be longer than the 13.8 billion years that the universe exist, which i resist.

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  12. nebel

    I am just reading " The Pleasure of Finding Things out " by Richard Feynman, he is adamant that only with math can we find anything out about the theme we are tackling here, "time", while he does not disparage creative thought in general. Math? That would count me out.

    The model that emerged is just an application of many ideas advanced before, prior art, starting with flatlanders of Victorian times.

    Steady state has it's comforting aspect, no bland fading into an evil even temperature death. But AE, queried in a way into a Beginning when he asked " --was there a choice ---- to make the laws as they are in the universe?" so , he must have thought there was a beginning, that he had a direct line so to speak, to find out, and that he felt sorry for whoever made the laws, because his own version was right. massively math confident.
    One reason I like to see a time-based picture of the universe, like the expanding sphere - is, because at my age, my running through time is running out. Last week, my doctor said I have at best only 30 years left; very few make it to 120.

    I trust that that they gave it their best.
    baryogenesis? that implies the existence of a balance of some form of energy, even if of zero sum, still made up of 2 parts almost equalizing, , that if it existed before the BB, had to have time to exist in, hence my tendency to give time the priority, exclusivity in the ES model.
  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Clearly he expects the only answer to the question to be could there be a choice if the Universe has no begining. That is what he is saying.

    Please dont misinterpret what he was clearly thinking☺

    And Richard...he was a drummer concerned only with the beat and oblivious to the concept of a melody.

    You know what we call a drummer. ..someone who hangs out with musicians.

    Look I have no issue with math but in the case of the inflation theory that is all there is. .. I see its roll as one of support , much like a drummer in a band, but not any more relevant than keeping the beat...if math is the only input it can create its own beat...
    You certainly dont look that old.
    You sound like a drummer.
    Its all about time.
    Music is a mix of inputs all have their part and their contribution so I ask do you think you are focusing on one input such that you are failing to give importance to other considerstions.

  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    I have no idea, what that is supposed to mean.
    But the intent of my question was if before the Beginning (when there was only timespace) there could possibly exist a creative sentience, which created spacetime.

    Further, my observation that the spiral depicted in your post reminded me of the Fibonacci sequence or the "golden ratio", which can be observed in many natural structures from DNA to spiral galaxies. I qualified it as a little aside from the discussion, but IMO, it may tell us something about the mathematical nature of nature, after the Beginning.
  15. nebel

    I actually welcomed your introduction of the golden ratio idea into the perception of a photon or object climbing through time in the membrane as it expands. I did not want to dwell of it right away, because my focus on the nature of timespace. If a model of the universe would be incompatible with one of the most natural of geometries, it would be ugly. I hope the ESM model is beautiful. thank you for pointing that out via the golden ratio.

    Again , I meant to express, in other words, the intent of not wanting to broaden the discussion to introduce deist, even religious ideas. a divisive, deadly issue.
    Write4U likes this.
  16. nebel

    I am not sure you are right on that. A universe with a beginning could have stability build in from the beginning, last an eternity from then on? or?
    Even if AE thought of an infinitely old universe, with a mind like his, and his choice of words " Did The Old One (Der Alte) have a choice--?" He opened the possibility that it could have been made differently. A created infinite universe in his mind?
    I will come back to your no beginning universe though, even there time is of the essence

    I gave my age away when I sign up here, I doubt though, that you know me personally, but if you saw my current family photo, yes, you are right I don't.
    If you looked at my other threads you would not say that. One of my favoured is the octave based, standing wave like spacing of the planets. My sense of music is in the harmonics, age related . We have no drums in the house but a baby grand, reaching pleasing notes with both hands.
    I have been drummed out of another site though, for being too persistent on one theme.
    Feynman is a drummer, agreed , even his writing style is staccato.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  17. nebel

    You are more radical than I. I like to believe that there is no beginning to infinite time. but
    there was a beginning of the universe at some point in time[space]. so:

    You go me one better, you are even comfortable with the universe itself being of infinite age. Some of course believe they themselves are immortal, always have been.
    I. Newton had an interesting idea, he believed the solar system , and I guess by extension, the universe too would need a nudge by his God once in awhile to keep stable enough to be in a steady state. We know now to have life develop and survive, it had to be relatively steady for ~4 billion years, looking back 1/4 to the Big Beginning of our neck in the woods. The beginning that is hidden behind the fog (nebel) of the CBMR.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Well I am not entirely comfortable as the implications would be vast and although a speculation ony part, would presumably mean worlds like ours and indeed creatures as advanced as us, or more so, have come and gone for an eternity.

    Evolvement and extinction.

    ..moreover to attempt to comtemplate an infinite universe is a frustration without relief.

    But if one is casual and merely says well the universe is infinite and nothing more it is thus defined and we can move on to discussing the football game last weekend which is local and therefore more important and requires little effort to consider.

    Personally I like to address the important issues in life like..whats for dinner or does the black make me look slimmer.

    I like the game of imagining a stick with no ends...under the stars with the astrograph capturing and harvesting photons for a couple of hours I actually have little to do as the camera fills with little bits from some distant object or as is the case many objects.

    So I sit and imagine that stick with out ends and run my eyes along it..only in one direction at a time as going in both directions is such a mental challenge it takes away the element that I call fun...but this imagimary stick takes me out of the solar system and thru various Suns planets Moons and all manner of objects and places with imaginary creatures that may be possible of undiscribable diversity...and this exercise does produce a realisation of the fact there is probably no limit on diversity and any limit I may set no doubt would be far too limiting...and mostly I think of how other creatures may live, their society, do they have culture or something different, and wonder how they may do their science and could there be other ways to work upon what would seem the universal basics...but the stick is never ending ..and then after only a couple of hours of travel and visitations the camera becomes full of photons so I must return to it to gather up all those harvested photons and then squeeze them together to make a pretty picture of a place I can never visit...but in one respect did visit...

    and you know... I never remember to mark on the stick how far I travelled so as to resume the journey from that point on my next journey...maybe next time.

    The fog that is the CBR is seen as inconvenient for a steady state Universe no doubt but there was a time when I think Eddington thought it was merely star light from way beyond...I must look into what he thought and if he did say such and at what point he no doubt changed that apparent view to meet the current cosmology.

    There are those who oppose the big bang and offer an idea of tired light...I strangly dont bother even looking into such far as I am concerned there is the current model which I actually support, just would like something that for me is more acceptable than inflation...and then there is whatever I think..I am not interested in rat bag ideas other than my own☺

    So what do you think about a universe that may cycle between a big bang and a big crush and that that cycle may be without a begining or end ... and please no speculation here. ☺

  19. nebel

    Interesting itinerary, I never engaged in that deep wandering. If there was significance to these possible developments, and why not)? but why is it not shown in the package we are given to study ? imho.
    re: The schtik. Cabinet makers mark the length, heights and depth of their projects with marks on sticks, shipbuilders too in their lofts (in pre computer times anyway). That left on side of the stick for the 4st dimension: time. I carry an oak stick when skateboarding that has the planetary distances notched on one surface. The remarkable thing, in the Bode,Titius sequence, the number for Earth is 10, the diameter of our orbit 1000 light seconds. you can count it on your fingers. figure.
    Even on the remarkable marked stick, time, the empty side, is at right angles to the adjacent 2 and then 3 dimensions. length, heights and depth of the piece to be made. Just like in the ESM model where movement through time is at right radial direction to the membrane expanding. On wood that can take a long time to grow.
    It is touching to touch wood that grew in Moses time 3000+ years ago, possible with the Sequoias in CA, USA, a must see, do while one still has time.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  20. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    That is interesting I must work that into the next conversation I have with a complete stranger.
    Yes I would get off on doing that.
  21. nebel


    It is touching to touch wood that grew in Moses time 3000+ years ago, possible with the . Sequoias in CA, USA, a must see/do , while one still has time.

    Come to think of it, tree's annual rings are another illustration of the Expanding Membrane (Cylindrical in this case) model. . The Life exists only in the cambium, and the inside is life-less more or less.
    Each harder winter ring is equidistant in time-record from the spindly seed sprout line in the center. Many trees, like Oaks have visible radially reaching cells too. marking the direction of the expanding growth. so:
    Time[space] existed long before that tree, but now it is growing, busting at the bark seems.
    There is a Bristlecone Pine in California, that is supposed to be older than the Sequoias, more ancient almost than the proverbial 6 days of creation. and
    Timespace is definitely older.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    We have a prehistoric tree over here Wollimbine pine..I will check the spelling and get a link..very interesting.
  23. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member


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