ALMA sees old galaxies before they merged. two ways to look back into the past?

Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by nebel, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. nebel

    thank you. Interesting how this life can reach forward in time. I used to work in a coalmine 1km down and there were imprints of fern and the like preserved in the coal seams. In the western US there is petrified wood.

    A perfect analogy to my " empty past" sphere of the "time-dependant" universe -- are the burned, hollowed-out trees that are alive and standing. And in the ESM model, even with our ancestors gone, we, who are the universe's way to know itself, living in the membrane, are carrying on in the expansion, cells combining, dividing into the future.
    Hollow Sequoias are standing, protected by thick and light bark, and because they can not fall over easily past a certain point, since they are really lighter living pipes having green leaves, but open to the sky above. Some have a diameter of ~ 10 meters. All near Yosemite National Park.
    re: Wollemia, sad comment on human nature that they have to live in cages. Same story with the Big trees in california, the US Army had to station the cavalry there to protect them from the lumberjack-[asses]. One of the fallen half hollow tree was used as a stable, easy with a 4 meter cavity inside. still there, left from the 18 hundreds. thousands.
    Glad that the universe, even if it has a hollow, hollowed past, as ESM predicts, is safe from us. I find it arrogant that many of the science fiction stories seem to imply that we will export our violent inclination into the cosmos. never watched one of them.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Check out the oldest known "living" species on earth. The Bristlecone Pine.
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    But of course this due to our insignificant size. Compare an atomic bomb with a Super Nova and you can readily see the difference.
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  7. nebel

    There might be a legit reasons to use atomic power in space though, to get an asteroid into a more benign path, but then again, if it would not be for asteroids, we might be not be here, but evolved dinosaurs instead of us.
    bristle cones pines not pining away? post 618. perhaps dinosaurs did not like the bristles, so they did not eat the cones.
    Still like to see how an infinite time cosmos with iso-temporal membrane picture of the universe turns out.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    They usually grow only high in the mountains and in soil which cannot support other fora.
    I agree, but then you need to cross over (bridge) the divide between the enfolded potentials and the unfolded physical reality.
    David Bohm addresses this in Bohmian Mechanics.
  9. nebel

    When it comes to Bohm, Broglie, Dirac, I have to enter the domaine of equations, and I thought I coust stick with models, so I am stuck.

    Sequoias do not grow in prime agricultural land either. For the purpose of the model, the <10 meter diameter rings with a burned out center fit perfectly. The Bristlecones remind me of Bohm, the spreading Filaments of the large scale Universe.

    I have an interview coming up and am trying to adapt and press a coconut into service as a divided sphere for the modelling job. nuts?
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    That is not necessarily true.

    It is not difficult to understand the "concepts" on which they based the mathematics. I can't understand scientific language either, but I am an eager reader of reviews by reputable science reporters, who ususually have a good grasp of the maths an offer "peer" review, usually in narrative form. I assume that the maths have been tested and confirmed. Why waste my time on rechecking the maths?

    If I understand the narratives from various "peer" reviews, I usually understand the fundamental perspective and principles on which a hypothesis is founded. The majority of the maths usually are mainly used as proofs or falsification. I just want to know the fundamental assumption. I skip the maths most of the time.
    Yes, a perfect example that harsh environment still can be host to a variety of life forms, usually themselves very hardy. And the fact that the Fibonacci sequence (a fractal form) shows up almost everywhere, strengthens my belief in the mathematical functional efficiency in nature.
    I have no idea, why you would want to use a coconut, unless it was for artistic purpose.
    Seems to me a hard plastic ball usually consists of two halves glued together and may be much easier to separate and end up with two near perfectly curved surfaces, on which you can draw with an erasable ink.
  11. nebel

    would you please provide links to read, or recommendations to the Bohm models you referred to?

    Thinking of my visits to the Sequoia groves. Those displayed upright slabs in their rings show the curvature analogy of the young universe (and living membrane) , and the near flatness of the circumference of the more mature tree at 5 m radius, The bark cracking under the expansion, spreading fibers in the Sequoias, but smooth with age, spreading only 3 inches additional bark to the 300+ feet circumference for the 1/4 inch ring growth in a summer.
    No wonder in the universe, the membrane appears flat with a radius of 13.8 light years (years in timespace), and adding only 40 feet to 80+ billion light years in circumference size to allow most humans to stand up in the gap (rings) between these expanding 2 stages of the membrane universe.

    True, the images in posts #553,# 554, # 560 are plastic examples. The woody coconut shells have that warm touch though. I found it rewarding working hands-on, - better fingertips-on with bodily models, one such session yielded a six figure $ invention. Feel the model. ( no not that one).
    There was a program ones on PBS that showed a human proportioned according to his nerve endings, and we looked there like a bug-eyed lobster, with so disproportionally many nerves coming and going to our eyes, fingertips. (if it had been a her, perhaps the multi nerves would have gone to the ears?) anyway,
    That is why the time-isotropic expanding membrane is so interesting,
    The ESM model shows what it looks like if time is infinite and prime. first things first. time then space.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Here are two but I'll look for more examples and writings.


    In any case a search for "Bohmian Mechanics" or "Wholeness and the Implicate Order" will lead to a host of articles and reviews, most without any complicated maths.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  13. nebel

    Thank you for introducing all these goodies. will take time to digest. I too am convinced that much of what we see is wave based, at some deep level. A trend one can see in the queries, threads I have started here reflect that. I like to hear more about it, From Lagrange to stars vibrating to waves traveling through ponds of time.
    To mix some Ideas together,
    Why could not be the Expanding Sphere membrane be considered the Pilot wave coming through the Dirac Hole and spreading into the timespace future?
    That picture above looks to me suspiciously like my concept of the details in the membrane of standing waves that confined the planets into the orderly orbits that find them in.
    It is just gratifying for me that simple geometric problems we learned in 1930 are still valid ground for discussion today.
    Write4U likes this.
  14. nebel

    using the Exp. membrane sphere, the flatlander analogy:
    assuming you have have cars a long way off, driving down the road toward*** you, at different speeds and some are exceeding the speed limit, as they come over the horizon how would that affect what you see, assuming the the speed limit is c?
    No matter how fast the cars are going, you personally or your radar gun would not be able to see beyond the horizon.(or how long the road existed ). and
    Would not the fastest car appear to be really red shifted, to the point of blending in, indistinguishable with the Cosmic Background Microwave Radiation, ~3 Kelvin? , so
    in your vision, you have all these signals but you could never see beyond your horizon, equal to the radius, no matter how far that car at supra-luminal +c speed came , even 3/4 way around the membrane (remember the model says you see only Iradius= 13.8 light years back.) Interestingly

    In the model, you could not , distinguish between the fog from the CBMR and the car --that somehow, because of its HP or because the road is moving at +c too, has a signal that is redshifted that far. ( the speed of an emitting object observed is not just its roper motion but also the expanding space it speeding on). so:
    just because we see seemingly far away objects, judging by their velocity, does not mean that the road really was longer than the geometry admits. ~ 87 LYs, which is the extent of the membrane universe circumference , not the diameter . or?
    P.S,*** famous second thoughts. away from you, with the expansion.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  15. nebel

    May be the expanding sphere membrane turns out to be a good amalgam of many previous ideas, a steady state of infinite timespace comprising the no-thing* indestructible [dark]energy in infinite time.
    The membrane/universe is continuing to move into the future of/inside that steady state timespace and the dark energy is showing up in the acceleration.
    The acceleration was started before/ during the Big Beginning from that steady state of timespace and still is, as the universe moves on.
    It is not spacetime that is steady, but timespace.
    the last word, so far.
    so good.

    naive question: with so much [dark] energy, who needs [dark] matter?
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    If "timespace" is a static condition, why is it even necessary (Occam)?
  17. nebel

    I had difficulty in my word choices, should have made that steady, as in the steady state universe. but, since the cat* is out of the sack,
    " Static " as an eternal/infinite in time condition would convey the idea of stability,our contrasting with spacetime that always surprises us with what we observe happened in the past, even if we call it news, it is really "olds".
    One could also apply the idea of an electricity-like tension, a potential, not unlike the description of the Dirac Sea, that can be discharged to produce a spark-like energy release as seemed to have occurred in the Big Beginning.
    Timespace was charged with potential possibility, stayed that way from way back, is still out there as we move into the future.
    Compared what others have filled the pre- BB condition with, could timespace not be called minimal, but potent?
    * Schroedinger might have been happy about that, with the whole cosmos condition being used as his not too sure feline)
  18. nebel

  19. nebel

    In the above post, only the following text is nebel's:

    Well, clearly computers have memories, or at least storage of past input.
    The universe too has information about past events stored that is it's memory.
    In the model, it is all circulating as radiation in the membrane and for a while as durable very thin artifacts. Only 1/4 of all that ever existed is visible to any given observer;
    Unless information would leak in from the eternal future that we are moving into. If claimed, that should be kept quiet, and very very carefully scrutinized. all claims to such extra-ordinary aka inspirational insights always came from the past.
    added: Even if we are the universe's way of knowing itself, we endowed with minds, and thus having active memories, it takes the universe's/membrane's information storage to fill it with visions of the past.
  20. nebel

    I have been championing the Expanding Sphere Membrane instead of this sausage model of the universe in time, but there is one advantage to this view:
    in having a unidirectional time, like an x axis growing to the right, one can stop time near the Big Beginning, and allow expansion at an hyper -c rate , stop on the x axis so to speak, let space inflate while movement through time is stalled. but:
    do we really need that. and in this model you are not really looking back from all directions to the BB, in any of the slices, but perhaps from the fringes.
    dangerous and bad enough if your are at the precipice.
  21. nebel

    bold added for theme.

    In the sausage model of the expanding universe, moving through time, the inflation theory to fix the uniformity problem can be pictured.
    To show the expanding sphere membrane model moving radially outward from the BB through time, with build-in early inflation would require picturing nestled spheres of different sizes, with timing marks along the radius, almost impossible without a video.
    Using the tree-annual ring picture, extra-ordinary growth can be seen in some summers, but that is spatial expansion. The model is supposed to show movement through time, which is thought to be consistent overall. No showing of zero movement through time, while space expands explosively.
    As Alex said: inflation unlikely, if trying to fit it into the expanding sphere model.
    imho: if all came from the same low entropy source, the BB, why would there not be uniformity? at least in the 1/4 we can see?
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    But if you look at it from the circular 2D slice of "now", we'd be able to look back in time and see all the way back to the beginning.. We could (hypothetically) be anywhere inside the circular plane and be able to look across space in all directions and back in time, but never forward into the future......

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    Moreover, we would still experience in the expansion (and contraction) of the 2D plane, as per the Pilot Wave model.

    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  23. nebel

    I tried myself to be in that position, and depending where you were in that slab, having good peripheral vision would give you vertigo looking over the edge. you would have to be a dedicated history buff to keek looking into the past, the light cone. How can you call that looking in all directions, if you have blinkers looking only at the past? but
    Yes, if you are describing it as a slice moving through time, you could send messages into the future, receive it from the past. but then, the sausage could not be filled with goodies all the way to the BB. that space would be empty too. or? being on the slice, you are really looking sideways to another place on the slice, all in the same time frame, and all the info from the BB to now has to be there in the slab, in form of radiation? how can you call that looking at the past? in the direction toward the BB?

    The sliced sausage model has the advantage though, to define inflation well.
    The expanding sphere by contrast is not a slide show, it is a panorama showing in 360 degrees what has happened in the past, in our 1/4 portion, most now aged, stretched, nebulous. from nebel.

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