ALMA sees old galaxies before they merged. two ways to look back into the past?

Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by nebel, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,579
    Now play this and watch what happens @ 12:30


    I have no clue what all this means but there is something in common here. The model are identical.

    Does anyone want to tackle this?
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. nebel

    Messages:
    2,469

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    no, not yet, but first we like to see you tackle the merit of 12 sided universe versus the Sphere Expanding Into Time model.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,579
    Can we set aside the dodecahedron model for now? That was an idealized theoretical model.

    Let me first ask a few questions about the merit of a "Sphere Expanding Into Time" model.

    a) what was causal to the expanding oblate spherical shape?

    Putting the ‘bang’ in Big Bang
    New theory of secondary inflation expands options for avoiding an excess of dark matter, by Brookhaven National Laboratory


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    by Brookhaven National Laboratory
    https://earthsky.org/space/big-bang-simulation-inflation-reheating-period/

    This seems to support my model of an inflationary epoch where the singularity expanded at an initially unrestricted exponential acceleration before the emergent physical laws slowed the process down to SOL.

    b) why could it not be an expanding toroidal shape?

    Particle creation in a toroidal universe
    1. INTRODUCTION
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230568839_Particle_creation_in_a_toroidal_universe.
    c) was there an priori dimension of Time for the Sphere to expand into?

    How long would you say that this dimension existed before the BB and if the BB was the actual beginning, what type of prior existence would any Time dimension be associated with?
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. nebel

    Messages:
    2,469
    w4y: Thank you for that gorgeous post.

    a) The cause of the emergence at point #4 in time #1, of matter and spacetime, the laws that govern us, belongs into another forum that I dare not tread with authority. Instability in the Dirac sea perhaps?

    b) The Sphere model expanding into Time ( the first dimension #1), is just that, a model. The age of bodies, looking at the Hubble Constant, seem to indicate a spherical expanse around us, along the panorama we see in expanding Membrane #3. Imagine the view from some of the more extreme points on the Toroid. Nature has a preference for the shortest path, perhaps even through time, the radius. ps: it would require extreme eccentricity of the mass distribution to create through gravity's time dilation a distorted, present day membrane #3.

    c) Energy can not be destroyed or created, therefore it must have always existed. It needed time to exist in, called energytime on this thread's smeit theory. There was no matter and 3D space to hang it into, prior to the Big Bang, #4, so,
    The pre-BB time might be imagined to be timespace, #1, the first dimension, and we are moving through it, into the future. In the process, the distances in time are expanding, increasing too , with the expansion of the universe in membrane #3.

    The "Big Bang" , was only the beginning of our universe in the point #4 of endless timespace #1. It comprised undefined energy, or potential. Even an abstract potential would need time to exist in. There was no "actual beginning" of time, timespace or energytime, the " a priory" first dimension.

    personal postscript: evolution has imprinted on our minds the concept of beginning. causality. for example, this week it will be 91 years ago that I started moving through time as a breathing entity.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
  8. nebel

    Messages:
    2,469
    model of universe as a sphere expanding into time S E I T

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    # 1 is timespace of the future that the universe expands into into. aka energytime.
    #2 is the past timespace that the membrane sphere #3 has moved through from the BB # 4, an area, volume, that is now void of gravity, other fields and any information.
    #3 is the zero thickness membrane that is thought of to contain all matter of the universe. ( zero thickness because it's zero dwell on its movement into the future).
    #4 is the point in timespace of the BB big beginning, now empty.
    #5 is showing the observer's location (Hubble telescope in this case of deep space viewing)
    #6 is the location of the MAC1 oldest, far star seen so far, so far away in time (2/3 to the horizon #9, which is allowing us to see only back to the BB cbmr).
    #7 is the exit point in the past, timespace, where the image of the far star that Hubble captured, originated, on the then smaller universe #8.
    #8 is the size in time of the universe when the light that Hubble received from MAC1 was emitted.
    #9 is our horizon from our current position in the universe, with a radius of ~13 BLYs along the membrane surface. (the rim of the umbrella)
    #10 is the possible position of the farthest star, ~ 40 BLYs away, halfway around the universe / membrane sphere. > 2 horizons away.
    #11 is a correction point accounting for the curvature of the membranes surface vs circumference. (also for 3/3.14 hex vs circle)
    #12 is the position of an astronomer elsewhere in the universe, that also could see that far star, but from the other side.
    SEIT about zeit, page (seite)# 36, post # 681
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2021
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,579
    I agree that the universe is expanding. I disagree that the universe is expanding into anything.

    As far as observable values are concerned, I believe that spacetime is a logically mathematical geometric object. That is why we can symbolize almost all the extant values and functions (equations) into human maths.

    I disagree with the concept that there is anything outside the universe, least of all time.
    IMO, the universe is allowed to expand because outside the universe there is no space, no time, but only a timeless permittive condition. Without the universe there would be nothing. But nothing is permittive of everything.......

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2021
  10. nebel

    Messages:
    2,469
    that is a very narrow concept, reminiscent of the the pre-galilean times, when people believed the earth was everything, with a few lanterns hung in the firmament.
    How about indestructible, uncreated energy? Energy that was used to create all the matter that matters in the Big Bang? Energy with no beginning and no end, that needed time to exist in? in timespace for energytime?
    with only 13.8 billion years old, we are the new kids on the block. so, please consider

    SEIT , a universe modelled as a Sphere expanding into Time.
     
  11. nebel

    Messages:
    2,469
    Raising here the solution to a previous missing explanation or postulat in this SEIT alternative theory (sphere expanding into time). : this illustration by Janus depicts the dimple formed in the :membrane universe #3. by a massive mass. The travel through time of the massive body is slowed, has stopped. the
    UNANSWERED QUESTION WAS:

    Why do photons, travelling in #3 at "c"with no movement in time, do not make relativistic dimples, get stuck in the past too? like black holes?


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    The answer is in the word relativistic. The zero time component in time dilation caused by speed, is frame dependant, all in the membrane # 3. the space. whereas
    warping of spacetime, getting stuck in time caused by gravity is real, independent of the observer.
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,579
    When you mentioned "photons travelling @ "c" inside a black hole, I wondered if they actually do. If they do then imagine the interior of a black hole where spacetime is curved 180 degrees with an uncountable number of photons circulating inside the BH @ "c".
    So, does that mean Photons do not travel @ "c" in a BH?
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2021
  13. river

    Messages:
    17,307
    To your last two statements , to the objects themselves , nothing about them changes . There is no dilation , from the perspective of objects out side . Looking in .

    Instead of time I call it movement . Space is needed for any physical thing to exist .
     
  14. nebel

    Messages:
    2,469
    read my lips, these are not photons inside a black hole, but photons in a tangent, not digging into membrane #3 because unlike gravity, their position of non-movement in time#1 does not create, or is represented by a gravity well, or represents a real slowdown in the march of the universe #3 through time.
     
  15. nebel

    Messages:
    2,469
    In the SEIT model, the universe #3 is indeed on the move, in a radial movement into the future#1. but,
    time is not the act of moving, time is the timespace that the universe is moving in, moving on, into. time is the past it came from.
    yeah, a black hole singularity has no space so, in that way too, there, you are stuck in time. spacetime, while everyone else moves on. but
    photons are free to move, and being confined in the expanding membrane #3 do not age at that tangential velocity. Light is so light, it does not make a dent.

    that is true only of photons. ( the theme of post 1088). on the other hand, going into a deep gravity well, you will experience real spaghettification, on into the singularity real loss of volume. real increase in density via pressure. ergo:

    There is serious dimpling in the universe by massive masses, but smooth sailing for photons, although in both cases

    movement through time is zero.
     
  16. river

    Messages:
    17,307
    nebel ;

    Highlighted

    Agreed

    time is based on the act of moving by physical real objects . Measured . By what ever standard .
     
  17. river

    Messages:
    17,307
    From my post#1090

    First highlight

    Its true for any object . No matter the form .

    to the objects themselves , nothing about them changes . There is no dilation , from the perspective of objects out side . Looking in . The outside objects don't dilate . You just percieve that they do .
     
  18. nebel

    Messages:
    2,469
    You can not be serious to maintain, to assert, that an object ending up in a singularity experiences no change.

    in contrast a photon in travel for a long distance does not change. space might expand. the photon not age, tire.
     
  19. river

    Messages:
    17,307

    I'm not . I'm saying there is no singularity in the first place . a singularity is a mathematical invention .
     
  20. river

    Messages:
    17,307
    Even gravity waves move away from the source , not towards the Galactic core .

    Your vibration theory says what about gravity waves ?
     
  21. river

    Messages:
    17,307
    To your last statement . The energy of the photon is based on its source . A Galaxy , Star , As the source becomes less enegenic the photon energy will have less energy .
     
  22. nebel

    Messages:
    2,469
    be that as it may, look at the gravity well in post # 1088, not a black hole; still, you would be seriously really squeezed. not just viewed as slower in time.
    once a photon is released, the change in the emitter does not affect the departed particle. The source is left behind ( Einstein's famous look back to the clock on the Church tower) , any change there is immaterial, invisible to the wave speeding ahead at "c".

    Gravity: real change,
    speed of light: relative observation changes only.
     
  23. river

    Messages:
    17,307
    New

    Not gravity well but cosmic radiation density and plasma . In a Vortex . Voyager 2 , In 2019 , 5 sensors still active . The Sun's magnetic field intensity was no longer felt . An extremely dense cosmic radiation and plasma was encountered .

    There is alot more . From a Nexus Magazine Article , July-August ; 2020 , page 51 , Science News : THE PLASMA UNIVERSE .
     

Share This Page