Alternative explanation of the doppler effect????

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by globali, Mar 20, 2019.

  1. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    This statement, the crux of your hypothesis, is where the error lies.

    Galaxies are made of stars, and stars are made of elements (mostly H and He). It is the stars that emit electromagnetic energy (light), and they do so at specific frequencies for H and He:

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    Atoms do not get "tired" and do not emit light in lower energy states by being "tired".
     
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  3. globali Registered Senior Member

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    Some questions:
    1)Does the light wavelength we detect have anything to do with the overall distance that the light traveled or only with the motion of the source? Is the magnitude of the shift homogeneous for all spectra or it depends on the wavelength of the source? For example, are the observed changes bigger or smaller when then light is in the red spectrum?
    2)Can hydrogen fusion to helium have any measurable effect? What about the reactions of helium2 and 3 that become more abundant over time?
    3)Light is emitted or passes through moving galaxies (moving gravitational fields) that distort spacetime (lensing) in a dynamic way. Does this have any measurable effect on the wavelength of light that travels across those galaxies and exit them? Does gravitational lensing affect the detected wavelength? what is this effect? Is there any lensing or gravitational field around the galaxies and in the vast intergalactic space or is it absolutely zero?
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
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  5. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    No, yes, respectively.

    Yes, no, respectively.

    Red/blue shift is tantamount to literally moving the entire spectrum in one direction or the other.

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    OK, this sounds like a new hypothesis.

    Can we conclude you're satisfied that "tired" galaxies aren't the cause for Doppler Shift?

    OK, these all sound like new hypotheses. You're kind of taking shots in the dark now. Is there some reason that, once the primary hypothesis is disproved, you don't default to the accepted explanation?

    What do you find lacking in the generally-accepted explanation?
     
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  7. globali Registered Senior Member

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    thanks for the responses on question 1.
    I totally understand that the DATA have shown that tired galaxies are not the cause of the Doppler effect.
    I dont want to propose new hypotheses as you implied. I am just curious and i want to learn.
    I asked some questions i had, because i didn't know if the potential phenomena i described even existed, or existed but quantitavely they cannot explain the observations regarding the doppler effect.
    From your responses I guess the answer on question 2 is that the composition of galaxies in hydrogen and helium is practically the same over extended periods.
    And the answer in 3 is that there is zero gravitational effects outside galaxies and gravitational lensing does not shift the observed light wavelength.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  8. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    More to-the-point: whether or not the composition of H to He changes over time, it is easily observable, since they each have characteristic frequencies. There's no confusing one with the other when we are looking at an explanation for red-shift.
     
  9. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Dave's post 21 makes clear that hydrogen emits one set of frequencies of light and helium emits another. These frequencies are characteristic of each element and do not change. The energy of the electron in each state of an element is fixed and cannot vary and it is changes from one state to another that cause elements to emit light.

    Any detected shift in the frequency of these lines has to be caused by something occurring to the light, or the way it is perceived, after emission. Relative motion between source and receiver can do that (Doppler effect) or, in the case of the cosmological red shift, a stretching of space itself, occurring between the time of emission and the time of detection millions of years later.
     
  10. globali Registered Senior Member

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    How is this shift observed? Is it a moment-to-moment event or it needs time?
     
  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    We don't need to observe the movement of the lines (at least, we don't have to).

    We simply look at the spectrum from some source.
    If it looks like the middle bar we know it's stationary wrt to us.
    If it looks like the top bar, we know it's red-shifted, and moving away.
    If it looks like the bottom bar, we know it's blue-shifted and moving toward us.


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    BTW, we don't need to look at distant stars to know this is how it is. We can do these tests here on Earth, in case there is any doubt that red/blue shift really does occur with a receding/advancing light source. So there's no theorizing there.


    That being said, we can look at the movement of the shift from a distant source over time.
    This is what we see:

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    The star 51 Pegasi has a large orbiting planet, which causes the star itself to move in a small circle, and we see its spectrum repeat this every 4 days.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
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  12. Janus58 Valued Senior Member

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    No. As light falls into a galaxy, it is gravitationally blue-shifted, but as it climbs back out after passing the galaxy, it is gravitationally red-shifted. Thus once it is back in intergalactic space it is back to the original frequency it had before the encounter. For there to be lensing, the light has to pass close by a significantly large mass. Close enough so that the gravitational effect of the mass dominates over all others. In the space between galaxies, the combined various gravitational pulls effectively cancel each other out.
     
  13. globali Registered Senior Member

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    292
    Oh ok! This helped alot
    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  14. globali Registered Senior Member

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    So i guess in all 4 graphs there is an additional generalized redshift every day due to the system moving away from us?
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  15. globali Registered Senior Member

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    So everywhere in the intergalactic space the gravitational pull (curvature of space) is equal and practically zero?

    Can we say that this is where special relativity is valid?
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  16. globali Registered Senior Member

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    Hey, i have another weird question.
    Lets say you have 2 galaxies, galaxy A and galaxy B. And you have an object right in the middle between them, whose length in the vacuum is lets say a.

    If galaxy B didn't exist, then due to the gravitational effect of galaxy A, the length of the object would be a-x (small space contraction). Similarly, if galaxy A didn't exist, then due to the gravitational effect of galaxy B, the object would have a length of a-y.

    If both galaxies exist and the object is right in the middle in the same distance as before, what would the length be? a-x-y or just a? Wouldn't it be a paradox for the length to be a, which means that the additive effect of the 2 galaxies has the opposite result, compared to the case in which only 1 galaxy was there? which means that if galaxy B suddenly appears close enough to A, then the space between them will dilate like 2 people pulling a shirt on opposite directions resulting in the shirt becoming longer??
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  17. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    What Janus is saying is that the light that "falls" into the gravitational well of a galaxy or cluster of galaxies is blue shifted. Then as it again "climbs" out of that gravitational well, it is then red shifted. The end result is that they cancel each other out. That is gravitational red/blue shift. We will though still see the cosmological red shift of that light as it reaches Earth, due to the intervening spacetime expansion.

    The light though that doesn't quite fall into the gravitational well, but skirts it, follows the spacetime geodesics, or the straightest line possible in curved spacetime and we then see that as gravitationally lensed in various methods including Einstein crosses.

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    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  18. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Correct.
     

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