I do not care much what we do to Iraq and other Arab states. I care more about what it costs us to fight them. They are run by thugs and religious fanatics. Who cares what happens to them? I do wonder if the war in Iraq is worth the expense in human rights, resources, and American lives. The disregard for human rights is what bothers me most. Before there was concern about terrorist activities, there was ample evidence of prosecutorial and police misconduct at almost all levels of government. We had a federal government with ever increasing power. We have an abusive IRS with far more power than it should have. The war on terrorism is likely to result in more abuse of government power at all levels. Yes, we have to go after terrorists and criminals. Yes, taxes have to be collected. We should do the necessary jobs without violating basic human rights. However, we should do it with some regard for reason and ethical principles. We need legislatures and civil servants due to the complexity of our civilization. However, we should be able to run a government without allowing politicians and lobbyists to run to run it for their own benefit. Since you can fool some of the people all of the time and all some of the time, the latter is going to be a tuff nut to crack. The US is holding lots of prisoners taken in Afghanistan and some American citizens and resident aliens without allowing them access to lawyers, family, et cetera. This seems contrary to the Geneva convention and various human rights principles. Due to the concerns about terrorism, laws are being passed to allow wire taps, internet snooping, and other invasions of privacy. When/if we ever get rid of the terrorist threat, we will have to live with the bad laws and principles established during this crisis. We never seem to learn from our mistakes. The Nazis were our enemies, so we considered the communists our friends even though their concepts were evil. We did a bad job of dealing with them early on, not realizing that having a common enemy does not constitute friendship. To some extent, we helped our worst enemy become powerful. When we discovered that communism was a hideous evil, we started backing fascist-like dictatorships. In the name of a war against fascism, we trampled on the rights of Japanese Americans (citizens as well as long time resident aliens), resulting in confiscation of their property as well as loss of their freedom. In the name of a war on communism, we allowed people like McCarthy to engage in witch hunts, trampling on human rights. Here we did not actually cause them to lose property and freedom like the Japanese, but hurt their economic potential along with their right to be left alone. American foreign policy is seldom evil, but it is often stupid.
This is nothing to worry about, remember 50 years ago we had Japanese concentration camps in the US.....Yes....for AMERICANS with Japanese ancestors
So, the thesis is: Accept abuses of power, and they won't get worse, because... (this is America) (God is with us) (we're not responsible) (there are worse governments out there) Please give me one good reason why America has to increasingly resemble exactly what we claim to oppose out of moral principle and higher social evolution.
Hype The paradoxical standard is one that has existed for a long time. Here's a benign one to consider: We are "capitalists" in the USA, and we defeated Communism because we empower people to make choices; in Communist USSR, institutions made choices about your education, health care, and financial security. At my last job I could - - Get subsidized healthcare (that I could afford) through my company, who made executive decisions about which hospitals and healthcare systems were available to me. - Afford college via a company subsidy, but only if I took certain courses and not others. - Set up a retirement account through my employer that would be handled in a for-profit manner. (I had no 401k to lose in the recent Wall Street troubles. Some people lost their ability to retire; that was their money to begin with that the company wanted to handle for profit while subsidizing the future security of its employments. In the US, we reject Communism because we see an inefficient but (theoretically) well-intentioned state institution mismanaging human resources into the ground. The government institutions should not have such power in our daily lives. However, a profit-minded corporate institution? Hey, it's "capitalism"! My father, for instance, after he snapped and moved out of the house and onto his boat, underwent a long-overdue personal transformation; he was one of those that believe the US was capitalist and furthermore believed in the noble potential of Capitalism. His business associations, his chosen political representatives, and eventually his own conscience would eventually betray him, one at a time, driving daggers into the heart of his faith in a free and competitive society. He realized that he was after a possibly unattainable utopia, much like he criticized of Communists. It was crushing to him. But I take my hat off to him; I don't know many people who survive that broad a failure of their most fundamental foundations. The funny thing is that he's a nice guy now. While the underlying problem was marital and familial (we all thought of each other as "alien" for most of my life), he has also escaped the conscience burden of his politics--his chosen cross to bear. I've never figured out exactly what happened there, but the turning points seem to be things that were important to me, and strangely he's apologized for some old fights. But he never believed Enron & company could happen; he never thought 401k's would be endangered by the greed of the business sector he so adored; something had to go haywire back when he advocated sweatshop child labor for American companies abroad--it was one of the last fights we had about anything political before he freaked out and estranged himself. The dregs of it are still playing out; I never expected him to oppose the Bush Wars, but life is full of pleasant surprises. :m:, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Heflores:Gee, I did not know about the Japaneses during WW2 I thought I was making something up when I said the following. Bad short term memory or failure to read all of a post? Tiassa: You dislike capitalism because you had a dysfunctional family? That is a good reason. I suspect that you are sorry that the evil of communism was a miserable failure. You are probably one of those who think that it failed in spite of having been a basically wonderful concept. I am glad it failed because it was basically an evil concept. Capitalism has not done much for us. Merely provided material wealth, medical technology, and conveniences that would make the nobility of most past civilizations envious. The nobility from the past would miss their slaves and their power, but not much else. Capitalism managed to get rid of slavery, which religion was willing to tolerate for most of our recorded history. It did not abolish slavery due to high minded principles. It merely made it obsolete. Capitalism seems to have a lot of worthwhile unintended consequences. Remember that capitalism did not invent poverty and oppression. It inherited them. This country has a lot of faults, but I would not want to live anywhere else, although Switzerland, Belgium, and Australia are tempting. We manage to correct some of our faults without bloody revolutions. There were no Irish, Russians, Hindus, Orientals, Jamaicans, Cubans, et cetera flocking to Arab countries or elsewhere in the last 150 years or so, but a lot of them came here. There are still a lot that want to come here, and damn few who want to go elsewhere, especially not to any of the Arab nations. Our foreign policy is often stupid. It is might be considered evil at times by some people. However, in the last 100 years, the enemies we have fought have never been anybody that could win a popularity contest, and most were down right evil. I have often been ashamed of our choice of allies, but never our choice of enemies. If I were making the decisions, I might not have gotten involved in most of the wars we fought in the last 100 years, but I considered all of our enemies to be far worse than us.
Evil & Stupidity are close relatives God.....Krassos or whatever your name is......I hope your freakin car plagues you with problems for ever and ever.......... Anyway, in refenence to the proposition that American foreign policy may often be stupid, but seldom evil. At the end of the day, these are all opinions. Opinions, amongst other things, are relative and are based on perceptions. Do you think that the vast majority of the citizens of the world agree with this statement? I have travelled as much as I can (to-date), often to what some may call far-flung places as well as the cities of major cultures. I have lived in some of these places too, including the East coast of the US. I have absolutely no intention of causing any offence when I say the following, and I do not say this lightly: in general, I have found a deeply entrenched distrust of America, more often than not, bordering on hatred. It gives me no pleasure to say that, its simply my observation - one that troubles me greatly. I also think that it would be a great and tragic mistake to automatically assume that these would largely be poor, developing or 3rd world nations. Rather, I have found that it is characteristic of a view or outlook on life. Perhaps I should put it in a context that I can be more assured of - my own country. As I write, it is quite divided, and in MY experience, the two camps are far from equal in representation. Those who generally make supportive or sympathetic noises re the current Iraqi situation would in the main, be of 'group' who look to a past, a past characterised by continuity: - the Church; law and order; a belief in the concept that 'hard work never killed anyone'; an unspoken belief that in a general sense, misfortune is often deserved; an utter faith in the moral and legal authority and integrity of the pillars or bastions of 'civilised society'; a reluctance towards, or fear of change; etc etc. Those that would oppose are quite different, indeed, it would be much harder to find a common thread, except for one. A fundamental belief and conviction in the utter sanctity, beauty and sacred nature of all things human, in all its diversity, etc etc. Yes some are left-wingers, if you need labels, yes some are unemployed, yes some are so-called intelligencia, yes some are social workers. However, 100's of 1,000's are none of these things (I live in a very small place): most simply realise that at the end of the day, the Pope is a man - so is the Ayatollah, Blair, Bush, Rumsfeld, etc etc, and that therefore, they are vulnerable to all of the frailities (including, what some may term 'evil') that man is susceptible too. End of story. They simply read between the lines and follow their intuitive instinct. That instinct tells them (circa 84% of my nations population) that the use by a country of the USA's material might, of weapons with capabilities straight out of science fiction, against a people that still cook over burning sticks (regardless of motive), IS FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG ON ANY POSSIBLE LEVEL OF ARGUMENT. It is an abomination in the face of the watching humanity of this world. And although most people of the world (not our 'leaders', unless they change the minds of the people, their particular belief is irrelevant in this discussion) know that the man and woman on the streets of America are no different to all humanity in our daily grapple with survival and the human condition, they are angered that the people of America are allowing this to happen. Please, believe me, America is hated in many hearts. Not because of its people, or its wealth, or its success (for Christ's sake, most of the poor sods on this planet, who live in perpetual misery, would look to what they think America is as some form of perfect goal..if only they could realise it). They hate America because of its foriegn policy. Algerians don't hate the French, in general. The Kenyans don't generally hate the British, nor do the Indians. Indonesians don't have it in for the Dutch, Tanzanians for the Germans. Many European countries had 'foriegn policies' that were blatantly wrong, wrong against the humanity of the world, not just the people of a particular country - shit, look at the slave-trade for God's sake. However, there is one considerable difference between the imperial and colonial ambitions of the 19th century and your young nation - they didn't keep doing it....again and again and again and again and again. Many of them got their butts kicked once and learnt their lesson - looked around them and saw the mood of the world as we left TWO world wars behind us (with less than 20 years seperating them). What is it with the US. Yes I understand the drive of capitalism - I understand why it works and why it pervades so successfully. Its not wrong or evil in its own right - its simply a system of economic and resource-based organisation. But, it appeals to the inherent greed in humanity - "you can have as much as you like" - and this is where, if capitalism were a law, the loop-hole that evil would exploit, exists. But what is it with the US - does Rumsfeld really believe that the world is so utterly devoid of any anlytical mind that when he says this war is purely to free the Iraqi people and restore democracy, we believe him/you? Do you have any idea of the sheer outrage his words engender in the world's population. Do you have any idea of the vitriolic bile his words create in the rooms of Oxford University to the cafes of Jakarta. I know that many Americans must feel the same way. Your leaders invoke the names of Justice Democracy Freedom Peace Infinite Justice Vengeful Eagle Shock and Awe Have you guys lost your senses???????? Is this some kind of quasi-Matrix, virtual-reality cartoon gone mad???? Infinite Justice??? Has the National Security Agency being playing too much Dungeons & Dragons late into the night? You know, I lived in NY for a while. I sensed something of what it may mean to be a New Yorker, and I loved the city. Then September the 11th. Do many Americans believe that this war will help address this issue of "terrorism"?? Let me throw a few sticks in the fire: - once we had 'freedom fighters', 'partisans', 'resistance', etc etc; - then, the new era post Vietnam, post colonial ass-kicking, which left us with 'guerrillas'; - now, we have 'terrorists'. End of story. TERRORists. Neat isn't it. Someone is violently opposed to your point of view, then kids, he is a TERRORist - the bogey-man under the bed. Am I trying to say that the men who commandeered the planes that hit the WTC were honorable freedom fighters, a resistance movement dedicated to a cause, partisans fighting a rear-guard action, passionate young guerilla fighters taking the fight to the enemy?? Yes and no. Yes there is a cause, whether you care to acknowledge it or not, it still esists, and yes, they were/are clearly dedicated to it. Yes, they would see themselves as fighting a rear-guard action, and yes, they want desperately to take the fight to the enemy. The harder they are repressed and hunted down/the greater the inequality in their ability to inflict harm on America versus America's ability to inflict harm on them, the greater will be their desperate need to bring the fight to the enemy. But no, I would not regard them as being men or women of honour, under any circumstances or within any conceivable definition of the concept. Not to do what they did to the humanity of New York. And, I suspect their version of 'freedom' would not hold much appeal for the vast majority of the people they would claim to 'fight for'. I remember standing in a bar at lunch time on 09/11 with some clients, staring in staggered incomprehension at the burning tower. Then, the second jet, live on Sky News in full colour and resolution, came out of left-field and rammed into the second tower. I still cannot and probably never will find the words to describe how I felt, the expressions on the men around me, in their lush suits clutching mobile phones and Psions. The world turned upside down - for them, for me. The pit opened, the fucked-up reality that lies so close to the surface yawned in front of us: Pontius Pilate's slaughter of the children; the amphitheatres of Rome in full swing; the napalm carpet bombing of the villages and rice-fields of Cambodia; the stinking putrescent mud of the fields under Ankar in the year-zero; the butchery in Rwanda and Burundi; the pleas of the humanity of Sarajevo, aired nightly on MTV-Europe as the butchers closed in; the noise made by the ripped lumps of child-flesh raining from the sky, in that unforgettable moment of complete silence, on a sunny Saturday afternoon in Omagh, a small market town in Northern Ireland. Some may have noted I ommitted the Holocaust. I didn't: the Holocaust never stopped - it is still happening. This is one side of mankind. This is what we do. This is what we are capable of. America, please, I know that many of my country-folk feel and echo this question in their souls, why didn't 09/11 tell you something huge. The magnitude and horror of the atrocity. Could you not see what so many others saw. The need to understand why such a thing could have happened. Why would anyone want to do that to the humanity of New York. Who could hate you so much, and more importantly, why? For pity's sake, what motivates a group of people to commandeer several aircraft filled with fragile innocent people and fly them and themselves into the side of a building. This wasn't a pot-shot at a president, this wasn't a molotov thrown at a government building, this wasn't a car-bomb outside an embassy. Why would someone want to do that to you. How many others feel that way and why why why why why. To solve any problem, you must first understand it. To defeat any threat or contagion or opponent or whatever you like to call it, fundamentally, you must totally disempower it. The only resolution is to totally and completely nullify its potential to exercise whatever harm it represents. I'm not a total pacifist - I do believe there are occasionally the grounds for what some term a just war....as in the motives. But I also believe that sometimes, the scale of the potential horror is too great for even a war to handle or prevent. And in those cases, the wishes of humanity are the only thing that will prevail, utterly and completely. If America had turned the other cheek. If the world had watched as you buried and grieved your dead, amid the truly horrible wound your city of cities had received. If the world had watched as your dignity and grace caused you to raise your head to face those that did this to you, and simply ask them the deepest most far-reaching question your combined might and grief could muster....."why did you do this thing?" Do you think that the world would have just sat there and avoided your gaze? I doubt it. Your 'Coalition of the Willing' would have numbered 6 billion people, 6 billion hearts and minds. A lady of my country, a travel writer by the name of Dervla Murphy, has travelled widely in Africa. In one of her accounts, she describes a scene in Nairobi, as the riot police moved in on a peaceful human rights gathering in one of the cities parks. Some young men and women resisted physically. Their tattered shirts and skirts were no defence against the dense wood of the riot squad's long batons. And then, the police closed in on the organisers, a group of women of mature years, wondrous beautiful women that had raised sons and daughters. Without a word or a sign, these women began to quietly undress completely. When the last garment fell to the ground, they stood, naked with their arms by their sides, and stood waiting for the police. I hope that someone has read this far, and I hope they can feel the power that I felt on reading those words. I believe that this is the only way that 'evil' can be defeated - defeated ultimately in way that Ender learnt to defeat his foe, defeated so that it can not rise again. You say American foreign policy is stupid more than evil. Perhaps. But in what sense do you regard it as being stupid? In the manner in which it tries to achieve certain motives or in the nature of the motives? The historian William Blum has compiled a list of countries that America has felt compelled to bomb since the end of WWII: China 1945- 46 Korea 1950-53 China 1950-53 Guatemala 1954 Indonesia 1958 Cuba 1959-60 Guatemala 1960 Congo 1964 Peru 1965 Laos 1964- 73 Vietnam 1961-73 Cambodia 1969-70 Guatemala 1967- 69 Grenada 1983 Libya 1986 El Salvador 1980s Nicaragua 1980s Panama 1989 Iraq 1991- 99 Sudan 1998 Afghanistan 1998 Yugoslavia 1999 If the motives, somehow included 'the preservation of democracy and freedom and human rights', ask yourself, in how many of these instances did a democratic government, respectful of human rights, occur as a direct result? Which is cause and which is effect? Is it stupid to drop phosphorous bombs on humanity and not achieve your goal? Do you mean it was stupid to bomb when sponsored sabotage, or food and medical embargos/sanctions may have worked better? Or do you mean it was stupid not to use more bombs? Or do you mean it was stupid to try to exert influence by military means instead of via economic conquest? Or do you mean it was stupid to get involved at all? Do you think that "stupidity" is an appropriate word, or rational explanation to the innocent humanity of the the countries listed above. Can I take you on a tour of these places, and bring you to the homes of the survivors - the homes of the firemen and ambulance men and medical workers and rescue workers who pulled the smoking remnants of flesh from the ruins of your bombs, made by the good folk of Tennesse of wherever? Can I ask you to explain to a Cambodian mother why you think American foreign policy is stupid but not evil? Can I ask you to explain why it was stupidity that so many of the weapons used in Northern Ireland were purchased with American money? To the author of the original post, I am sorry for what must seem a diatribe on your earnestly expressed opinion. That is not my intention my friend, if you will let me call you that. I'm just worried, very worried. I love life, I love the world. It is beautiful beyond comprehension, and its people and its humanity, despite everything, is one of its most beautiful aspects. I want the Holocaust to stop. If not in my life, then maybe in the lives of my children, or maybe their children. I'm worried because in a sense I agree with you a lot. There is an immense amount of what could be viewed as stupidity. But, do you not think that stupidity and 'evil' can be one and the same? Do you not think that stupidity is the most fertile ground for 'evil' to thrive? Whatever a persons conception of what is 'evil', do you not think that if it would use stupidity to its own ends? Is it stupidity alone to think that a people of a skin colour are somehow more deserving of existence than those of another skin colour? Do you think that the husbands who watched their wives burnt alive over piles of kindling because the poor wretches were infected from moldy grain and therefore hallucinating, do you think as their agonised screams tore the air that their husbands thought it stupid or evil? Yes of course it was a form of stupidity, born out of ignorance and lack of knowledge. BUT it was goaded by a sense of moral authority and a fear of anything that would challenge, and, for the husbands and children, the outcome was evil. It is and always will be. I have little time for organised religion - it is after all, a thing of man - but I do retain one, salient, driving, belief from what I was taught as a child: Do onto others, as you would have done onto you. God Bless America.
"Do onto others, as you would have done unto you." ...the simple solution. (I mean no sarcasm) It's easy and satisfying at the personal level. But well-meaning people so often fail in projecting this truth into collective actions. "Do something political, as you would have done unto you" is the dilemma: Everything we each love and wish to endure may end, if more individuals do not take this simple concept, predating all religions and history, into political action. Do something: I am an American resisting with great frustration my federal government, in every legal and democratic way- while considering illegal methods if events continue to move toward The Brink, where all ethics fade to black. This is a small, unoriginal echo, cry, graffito of alarm that only a few will notice. I can't ramble on about world events without letting this emotion vent now and then. I hope the old meme robsaunders quoted can take greater hold collectively- it must if we are to endure. Let's each do something, and together billions of things true and beautiful. While there is still time.
robsaunders Welcome to Sciforums, nice... long... postPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Uhoh Tiassa... looks like you have competitionPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
so you stated the obvious........and could not help airing your callous disregard and hatred for the arabs (again) Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
