# Amnesty International and Hamas

Discussion in 'World Events' started by BenTheMan, Feb 19, 2009.

1. ### S.A.M.uniquely dreadfulValued Senior Member

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Goliath was a Philistine. Dont you know your bible?

Not at all. Its not even mentioned in the Quran as a punishment for any crime, except as examples when Muslims were stoned or in dialogues where stoning was mentioned. There are six verses in the Quran that mention stoning:

[11:91] They said, "O Shuaib, we do not comprehend many of the things you are telling us, and we see that you are powerless among us. If it were not for your tribe, we would have stoned you. You have no value for us."

[18:20] "If they discover you, they will stone you, or force you to revert to their religion, then you can never succeed."

[19:46] He said, "Have you forsaken my gods, O Abraham? Unless you stop, I will stone you. Leave me alone."

[26:116] They said, "Unless you refrain, O Noah, you will be stoned."

[36:18] They said, "We consider you bad omens. Unless you refrain, we will surely stone you, or afflict you with painful retribution."

[44:20] And surely I take refuge with my Lord and your Lord that you should stone me to death:''

Its actually a Jewish practice. Hence Jesus proclaiming "Let he who is without sin...etc"

3. ### StrawDogdisseminated primatemaiaValued Senior Member

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1. You have first hand knowledge of this?
2. So they should rather teach their kids to LOVE the thug and oppressor?

1. Counter condition. Israel removes blockade from Gaza and from the West Bank AND returns all Palestinian territory stolen since 1947.
2. An understanding is reached with the world about how to deal with Gaza in the event Israel breaches its part of any ceasefire deal. Which Israel has repeatedly done arguably as a pretext for military action.

This is US geopolitical strategy at play. Iran was and is an innocent victim. Democracy was replaced by dictatorship. Fun and games, US style. A mistake? Now Afghanistan and Iraq.

Of course Israel should sign the NTP so inspections can be carried out. After some initial hiccups, inspections have been carried out at ALL Iranian sites. No nukes.

What are you saying? There is nothing to argue. It is common knowledge that Iraq was the aggressor and invaded Iran.

Lebanon 1982.

If you FEEL someone has WMD and invade only to discover there are NO WMD what is that? EVERY RIGHT? How utterly hypocritical. Israel should show some respect. They are known NOT to be trusted.

I take that as no links available?

.

No. The facts are here. http://www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/Palestine-Israel_Primer_MERIP.pdf

A fairly expected response. Feel free to refute the points in the "blog".

Thus the need for unconditional dialogue.

And arguably, the suffering of the Jews is nothing but a tool for the Zionists to invade a territory based on 2000 year old myths that they consider Holy.

So there you have - conflict. And yes, two wrongs dont make a right, but there comes a time for humility and dialogue.

Fair enough. Thank you.

Why would hordes of Christians go live in Saudi Arabia? The Arab Israeli birthright is higher than the Jewish birthrate which reflects a general Western trend to smaller families. These are cultural differences.

Like the US eh? Once again, the arrogance of the superiority of the "Western" model of civilization is clear. And inappropriate.

The Arabs in Israel are second class citizens and do not have equal rights. Any way you cut it, they ARE discriminated against. Israel is a JEWISH homeland, G-d help us. Those pesky Arabs are a blight. What to do...

No Captain. I am saying the Arabs were right to be weary of Jewish settlement.

All nations have tales. But on the second point, yes, the Jews have every right to protect themselves, as do the Arabs and Palestinians against Zionism. The Arabs are up against an ideology that proclaims quite clearly,

Wow. They must give up LAND? Provide financial COMPENSATION? I am at a loss for words...
So I can buy a ranch in Texas and proclaim a sovereign state?

I am so tired of this old chestnut. There is violence from both sides. But how can you possibly compare 8 fatalities against 1300? How can you possibly compare a handful of destroyed homes to 21000?

Lets turn our heads away and imagine the Zionists are NOT perpetrating these massive crimes.

5. ### Buffalo RoamRegistered Senior Member

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Exactly, and Palestinians are not Philistines, so there is no such thing as a Palestinian, just Imperalist Arabs.

7. ### CptBorkValued Senior Member

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I suppose you've never heard of Farfur the Mouse or Nahoul the Bee? Never seen pictures of Palestinian kids parading through the streets dressed as suicide bombers, or videos of Palestinian children singing about eliminating Israel? Never read what is taught in Palestinian textbooks about Israel and jews in general?

They should not encourage their kids to seek conflict. They can call Israel a thug and oppressor and hate it all they want, but they don't need to be taught to seek violence as a solution.

This would defeat the entire purpose of negotiations. You're asking for everything to be restored to the conditions which caused this crisis in the first place. This is the same sort of negotiation tactic the arabs are using- they call for a one state solution, knowing full well the jews will be subjugated once it's established.

That's not true at all. Iran has several sites it refuses to declare and refuses to open to UN inspectors. You sound like Baghdad Bob with your blanket denials.

And Iran replied with an even larger and longer lasting (8 years) wave of aggression. Not only did they demand financial compensation and the removal of Saddam Hussein, but they also demanded that Iraq accept several hundred thousand shiite immigrants and that its regime be replaced by an islamic dictatorship. Not to mention the fact that Iran had already been provoking border clashes with Iraq prior to the Iraqi invasion. What was that you said before about 2 wrongs not making a right?

Yes, back then Arafat was openly using Lebanon as a military base from which to unleash waves of terror into northern Israel.

I didn't call for anyone to be invaded based on suspicions of WMD possession. I said the west has very strong grounds for its suspicion that Iran is seeking nuclear weapons, as well as good reason to suspect that such weapons are sought for other than defensive purposes. On these grounds, the west has every right to impose economic sanctions on Iran, as well as anyone who refuses to cooperate with these sanctions. If we decide that we don't want to buy oil and carpets from Iran, we are 100% within our rights to make that choice.

No, take it as laziness that I won't look up something you can easily research for yourself, seeing as your bias against Iranian dissidents suggests you're not inclined to take them seriously.

Your source claims that, according to the Turkish census, there were roughly 430 000 arabs living in Palestine in 1893. That's a very disingenuous claim because it doesn't even account for the difference between what was then being called Palestine and what is today being claimed as Palestine.

According to this source, http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm, the correct tally in the area of relevance is less than 200 000, and by other historians is estimated to be even less. If you assume a very high birth rate and very low death rate, for a population growth rate of more than 2.5% per annum continuously for a period of 50 years, then you have a low number of arab immigrants in the range of 100 000~200 000 over that period to account for the population in 1948. This is assuming no major causes of death or disaster during that entire period in any part of Palestine, as well as taking the higher range of estimates on the arab population in 1893. This does not take into account any of the waves of immigration into Palestine by multiple different ethnicities that took place in the decades and centuries prior to 1893.

I also like how the article you referred me to implies that Nasser politely requested the withdrawal of UN peacekeepers from its border with Israel in 1967, as if it was done over a cup of tea and a friendly chat. Nasser ordered those peacekeepers out at gunpoint. The article also neglects to make any mention of the multiple speeches Nasser gave in the days prior to the war's outbreak in which he promised Israel's imminent destruction. Very objective reporting there.

Sure. The author of the blog which you're using as a primary source claims there's no evidence for an exodus of jews under Roman and other foreign rulers. The jewish population of Palestine in 1st century AD is estimated to have been as low as 1 million and as high as 6 million. Even in the 1800's, almost 2000 years later, the total population, including muslims, was still much smaller. I doubt the crusades could account for such a major impact.

That won't get you very far. Israel: "Stop shooting rockets." Hamas: "No." Ok, what now?

If Hamas keeps shooting rockets or stands by while others do it, nothing will be accomplished. Maybe you magically assume Hamas will renounce violence if Israel does likewise, but you have no plan for how to hold them accountable if they don't.

Why are the few christians who go to Saudi Arabia forced to hole themselves up in walled compounds? Not only are all religious minority populations in virtually all muslim countries receding relative to the general population, they are in an outright recession, period. The stories of religious persecution in muslim countries abound, you have to be willfully ignorant to deny them. Give me evidence of anything more than a token minority being tolerated in muslim countries. Like I said, they can't even tolerate homosexuals, how can they be expected to suddenly move in peacefully with the same Israelis they've been trying to blow up these last 60 years?

You're asking for Israelis to submerge their nation inside someone else's culture. Since you're the one doing the asking, the Israelis are allowed to be as snobby and arrogant as they please.

Their treatment is no worse than how most racial minorities find it in France, Britain and even America. On paper they are equals, in practice they don't get equal treatment. Now as for the treatment of jews in muslim countries, I guess we'll just sweep that one under the carpet eh?

Meanwhile in Iran and Saudia Arabia, all the races and religions of the world are holding hands and dancing in a circle.

So they resorted to violence when negotiations weren't going as well as they'd hoped.

Ok, and by promoting the arab side of the tale while outright dismissing all arguments to the contrary, you're not providing constructive help or reducing tensions.

Now you know how Israel feels when they're asked to do the same.

If you can demonstrate exclusive usage over that land, sovereign control of its borders, and you have a functioning community there, you can file a case for consideration. If you can demonstrate further that sovereignty is needed in order to protect you from outside persecution, or you happen to be attacked while in the middle of negotiations, it would add strength to your case. Of course, to buy a ranch in Texas you'd probably have to sign some agreements with the US government first, which would probably limit your ability to make such a claim.

Having Israelis do nothing but watch Sderot get pounded on a daily basis is unacceptable. Having a tit for tat leading to an endless cycle of violence is unacceptable. Postulating that Israel must abandon sovereign territory it's held for over 60 years before the Palestinians are even required to consider peace is unacceptable.

If you think there's a better way Israel can defend itself, why don't you call for international peacekeepers to travel to Gaza and show the Israelis how it's done? I presume you're not implying that Israel must wait for 1300 of its citizens to die before it acts against Hamas the way it did, so what point are you trying to make?

8. ### VkothiiBannedBanned

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Having armed Israelis walking around everywhere ready to shoot any Arabs they see with guns, or Arabs who want to travel along a road they have every right to travel along since it doesn't "belong" to Israelis. but only according to the UN, isn't a good way to assert you "want peace".

If the clown gives the kids poisoned cake at the party, then shoots a few of them, does everyone still think he's a happy clown? Because he didn't say "boo!"?

Clown: "I had to, they were all planning on poisoning me, and one of them actually walked up and kicked me... in the shin!..., I had no choice but to defend my inherited clown-ness, and look, my costume is just ruined!"

Last edited: Feb 25, 2009
9. ### spidergoatLiddle' Dick TaterValued Senior Member

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Until there is a formal peace process, Israel will ensure it's security as they see fit and they will make life difficult for the Palestinians as an incentive to negotiate. The negotiations don't begin on the level of the daily interactions between soldiers and civilians.

10. ### VkothiiBannedBanned

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Until Israel and Hamas / Fatah elect leaders who are strong enough and have the will to address the reality and negotiate, the circus will continue and the high-wire act is always live.

There will be a lot more abuses of rights - mostly among the contending Palestinian factions, and from Israelis towards Palestinians. They're a captive audience.
Leaders from either side are wearing clown costumes right now, and trying not to get them dirty.

11. ### StrawDogdisseminated primatemaiaValued Senior Member

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CptBork
1. Not all Palestinians are militant. It is most regrettable that a situation has arisen where children are conditioned in this way. Having said that, the imagery you mention does not necessarily reflect the opinions of "Palestinians" as a people. Although I am not denying its existence, it is classic propagandist imagery.

2. I concur with this Captain.

That is the reason why I use the term "unconditional". Let me backtrack. There are legitimate gripes from both parties, as we have shown. I suggest that to get to stage to initiate dialogue, there are no pre conditions on the table. The table is clear on both sides.

Granted. There is a certain amount of reluctance regarding certain inspections. I think the mitigating factors of sanctions, lack of open and equal dialogue with the US, and the Israeli nuclear capability along with its non membership of the NPT, are valid. I would have to accept this report as the reality on the ground.

(http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=189701)

This was mutual aggression AFTER Iraq invaded. This amounts to a DEFENSIVE stance from Iran. Once again, Iran did not INITIATE the invasion of a sovereign nation.

Reparations are normal and justified in any illegal war.

No. These clashes were not provoked by Iran. These are ancient territorial disputes, and Saddam persued restitutional ambitions. The bottom line to our debate, remains that Iran has NOT waged a war of aggression in the 20th century.
Self defense is not two wrongs making a right, it is a RIGHT.

No. That is the tired mythical Israel line. The truth is that the Israelis feared an alliance between the Lebanese Muslims, the Palestine refugees, and Syria. This would greatly effect the balance of power. The other tired line that the trigger to the conflict was the attempted assassination of the Israeli Ambassador in Britain, Shlomo Argov, has been shown to have major flaws.

(http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_london_attempt_1982.php)

What are the STRONG grounds?

And Israel, who have nuclear weapons, and who at this time is pondering a pre emptive (nuclear) strike against Iran`s nuclear installations, are not deemed a threat?

No. That is called sanctions. It creates militancy.

Its Mossad operating inside Iran that is worrying. That I take seriously as there is a DEFINITE track record of black ops.

The fact of the matter is that Arabs who had been living in the territory known as "Palestine" vastly outnumbered the Jews. Fact.

(http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959229.html)
(His book "When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?" - Shlomo Zand)

The jury is out and certainly NOT refuted.

?

The insistence on the term "unconditional" and getting ALL effected parties to the table, including so called "terrorist" organizations like Hamas.

I assume only that if Hamas is recognized as a legitimate body, and included in dialogue, things may improve. One cannot achieve decisions on controlling violence without initial dialogue.

The potential for Jews to be victimized or targeted in Muslim nations are directly relative to the actions of Israel towards the Palestinians and other Arab states. Given the recent atrocious assault on the people of Gaza, lets keep that one on top of the carpet until there is some sort of justice for war crimes.

Religious persecution abounds in all religions. You cannot claim that it is a Muslim specialty.

The creation of Israel was and is paramount to the establishment of a Western model nation, in the very center of the Arab world. One tiny little piece of stolen desert. And now, they expect the entire ME to dance to their tune? Israel and its backer the US, seems to think the way of the interloper is best for all. Hence the black ops to destabilize governments and invasion of Lebanon, Iraq and perhaps soon Iran. Its called a spade.

No. They resorted to violence as almost every oppressed and displaced people on the planet have. Of course the Zionists resorted to violence when they realized that the locals were not just going to leave quietly.

My friend, the Arabs need all the help they can get. Recently 1300 Palestinians were slaughtered, and the world hardly raised an eyebrow. If the Jews were the victims here, I would be supporting them.

?

Did the Zionists sign agreements with ALL BODIES concerned? Thus their claim is flawed.

Having the average peaceful civilian Palestinian do nothing but watch as 21000 homes get destroyed is unacceptable. Considering absolutely NOTHING was achieved by Israels assault, it is grossly unacceptable. Tzipi Livni has stated herself that Israel may have to concede territory to create a platform for dialogue. The Israeli themselves concede to past errors. And much closer to the ACTUAL truth is that the territories in question were obtained illegally.

Actually, the one thing the Israelis have NOT done so far is a honest attempt at peace. My point, in part, is the Israelis should stop putting obstacles in the way of truce, like Shalit, and should stick to a mutual ceasefire agreement long enough for a peace process to be initiated. Slaughtering 1300 Palestinians is not the actions of a nation searching for peace.

Last edited: Feb 25, 2009

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UNWRA is full of either Arab employees or leftist westerners who have a beef with Israel thanks to some brainwashing they've experienced back home. there are no ideologically neutral employees on UNWRA's payroll. the least radicalized employees are merely providing moral support. but the rest are giving cover to the nazi nihilists from HAMAS and Jihad Islami, or even participating in "operations" with logistics and similar things. some employees are even HAMAS members themselves.

oh shit, just noticed the thread is about Amnesty International, not UNWRA. they're not as bad as UNWRA, but they have tainted their reputation in many people's eyes because of their bigotry and discrimination against Israel. too bad. AI used to actually do good work. maybe they should purge themselves of the fanatics that have been in charge of AI in the past 8 years and restore that organization to its credible old self.

13. ### S.A.M.uniquely dreadfulValued Senior Member

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Israeli opinion: all human rights organisations are evil. Only extremist and racist right wingers speak the truth and make sense.

Heil Leiberman!

14. ### quadraphonicsBloodthirsty BarbarianValued Senior Member

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The thing of it is that when AI isn't busy getting criticized for being anti-Israel, they're busy getting criticized for being a tool of Western imperialism.

So they're probably doing something right, to judge by the balanced demographics of their critics...

15. ### GeoffPCaput gerat lupinumValued Senior Member

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Hehe...."collaborators". Sure they were.

16. ### GeoffPCaput gerat lupinumValued Senior Member

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Sam/Hamas opinion: All human rights and Jews are evil. Only extremist and racist islamists speak the truth and make sense.

Why, hello there, coin.

17. ### VkothiiBannedBanned

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GeoffP/Zionist opinion: everyone who questions Israel's existence and the reasons for its existence hates Jews and wants to destroy the West.

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You're saying the complaints coming from the beacons of human rights (Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, corrupt African revolutionary regimes, China, etc.) that always criticize the west for being bad have the same value as actually valid criticism coming from actually normal countries that actually do respect things like due process and human rights and freedom of religion and things like that.

That's a cowardly position to take. It's also completely invalid. Don't be a pussy moral relativist. This isn't a collective bargaining agreement where the arbitrator knows that if both parties are whining then he's struck center. This is something a TINY bit different.

19. ### VkothiiBannedBanned

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It's also patently cowardly to disavow Western Imperial influence having any causes, resulting in those same regimes, corrupt or otherwise, left behind when its grip crumbled.
They were doing ok until we turned up. The Arabs were taking a sustainable number of captives into slavery, until America Inc. turned up in the marketplace.
Slavery is a fact of civilisation; in fact it never went anywhere, everyone in the West who thinks they are comfortable, is just a happy slave.

20. ### quadraphonicsBloodthirsty BarbarianValued Senior Member

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No, I'm saying that AI doesn't seem to display any noteable bias in who it pisses off with its reports, so I'm not impressed by the accusations that they're out to get Israel. This whole thread is about them issuing a report highly critical of Hamas, isn't it?

Likewise, AI is explicit that it is not in the business of providing a balanced picture of global human rights abuses, but rather focussing on those places where it can do the most good. Which are necessarily open societies where the government is subject to peaceful political influence. You should not interpret a focus by AI on any particular country or region as implying that they consider the rights situation there as worse than any other region. It only implies that it's a place where they think they can actually make a positive difference. They are explicit about this and, in the first place, the fact that some other country is even worse does not excuse anything.

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Are they really explicit in the fact that they only go after the easiest targets, as opposed to the ones where more people are dying or being abused? Their job is not to FIX things, but only to report and expose. They should be able to work almost anywhere in the globe.

I disagree with your assessment of AI's mission. And if it really is what you say it is, then most people are completely unaware of this. I've never seen any disclaimer anywhere from AI a-la "Israel is violating so and so international laws, however we have not been able to investigate the other side's abuses since they're making it too hard for us".

I've got plenty more to say about this but I'm just not in the mood. AI can suck my dick, when it comes to their twisted and disproportionate smearing of Israel.

22. ### VkothiiBannedBanned

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You mean you don't "understand what AI does, or why it does it where it can".

Looks like someone has learned how to suck their own dick, all by themselves.
Congrats.

23. ### iceauraValued Senior Member

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"Conditions" did not cause this crisis.

The war lasted eight years, was launched by Iraq, and ended in stalemate. There isn't any room there for eight years of Iranian aggression, even if the country invaded was somehow transmuted into the aggressor at some point.
So you find something strange about a country subjected to full scale military assault demanding compensation and removal of the perpetrating head of State?
Waves of terror? Military base? Kind of excitable, aren't we.
We are sanctioning and blockading, not boycotting. Blockades, btw, are acts of war.
No, it doesn't. The only real reason we suspect Iran to be seeking nukes and threatening anyone with them is that we realize they have good cause and every motive to do that.
Iranian dissidents have proven to be spectacularly unreliable - to the point that people trying to figure out how the US got conned into Iraq are openly speculating about the role of Iran and/or Israel in planting them.
Hamas has kept truces negotiated in the past. Of course, after Israel's latest violent breach of the last one, Hamas may need some reassurance.

The real problem so far has been more this: UN/Hamas/Fatah/decent people everywhere: "Stop blockading and abusing and dispossessing Palestinians" Israel:"No"

It's the Israelis moving in. And no, they haven't been peaceful about it.
They can get over their hurt feelings, give back what they stole, pay what they owe, return their captives, and begin to behave like decent human beings.
They not only did quite a bit, in the way of blockade and street murder, but they continued to do it whether Sderot was being rocketed or not - all through the truce, for example.
That would be interesting: Foreign troops clearing the settlements and tearing down the walls and forcibly transferring stolen land and water to its owners and settling Israel's boundaries. I think Israel would object to such instruction in national civility.
There has been a formal peace process. Israel has chosen to torpedo it, repeatedly.