Amnesty International and Hamas

Discussion in 'World Events' started by BenTheMan, Feb 19, 2009.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    KSLal? The guy who got his butt kicked for revisionist history? Did he know that Hinduism was invented by the British in 1850s?

    Next time you're on powwow with your native "brothers" be sure to tell them you would have supported their treatment as savages put them in a ghetto and bombed and starved them because you think western civilisation justifies it.
     
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  3. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    Nicely countered Bork. Softens.

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    A rose amongst the thorns, or a thorn amongst the roses? How do you suggest the Palestinians go about building an attractive way of life when they are imprisoned, starved, bombarded and invaded willy nilly? Calls for an end to the blockade have gone unheard for 2 years now.

    The fact is there is NOTHING on the menu. No incentive, no trust, and NO compromise from the Zionists. The Palestinians are expected to compromise, but not Israel?

    I can say quite truthfully and factually, that the colonial powers are responsible (not exclusively) for a great deal of the ills in the ME, Africa, India and Asia.

    In a nutshell. Iran pre 1953 and post 1953.

    1. Iran is a signatory to the NTP - Israel is NOT.
    2. Iran has no recent history of invading sovereign nations, Israel HAS.
    3. Since when does the West play the role of policeman in nuclear tech? That is another remnant of colonialism.
    4. Israel`s nuclear weapons program has NEVER been open to inspection.

    The hypocrisy is clear.

    Good. that is refreshing to hear. I think the world should demand greater cooperation from Israel to reveal what its doing, and Israels various trading partners can decide for themselves how they want to proceed based on how Israel responds.

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    Any links I can pursue?

    OK. Past half century is WAY better than 2000 years ago dont you think? The land called Palestine, had been inhabited for untold generations.

    This is a myth. Exposed here: http://sjlendman.blogspot.com/2009/02/short-history-of-israeli-palestinian.html

    More background in my post here: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2165368&postcount=38

    That is also incorrect. See above for the background on this.

    Mistakes were made, and are being made. The crux of the matter is for Israel to exist, is for Palestine NOT to exist. That in a nutshell is the Arab objection to the establishment of the Israeli state. Outsiders from Europe, fantasizing and calling on a 2000 year old legend, displaced indigenous Arabs in Palestine.

    Israel, in the simplest form, is an illegal state.

    So?

    1."Like a minority culture of Arabs thriving in Israel eh? Except they have been ousted and imprisoned. See, when you try and tar the Arabs, you tar the Jews.
    2. There are Christian, Hindu and Buddhist minorities living quite safely in Muslim nations.

    ?

    They could see the writing on the wall. And it was written in BLOOD. And they were right.
    The mythology of Victimhood. Smoke and mirrors. A history of suffering does not give one the right to inflict suffering in return.

    Correct. What took you so long?

    The Russians sold Alaska in a moment of weakness, and it is the land of their forefathers. Does that give them the right of return?

    Hamas gains legitimacy in the process of DIALOGUE and INCLUSION.

    Thank you, you are too kind.

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  5. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Only in your fevered brow:

    Sanātana Dharma,

    The Vedas are among the oldest sacred texts in the world dating from c. 1500-500BCE. Most Indologists agree that an oral tradition existed long before a literary tradition tentatively may have been set in (in one shakha, Kanva) from about the 1st century BCE.

    Yes, nothing existed before Islam did it.
     
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  7. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    F&@k me. And if I remember correctly, DAVID was victorious. On a serious note, what are the Israeli conditions for negotiations again?
     
  8. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Return Shalit, and stop shooting rocket at them.
     
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Try again. Look up the etymology of Hinduism. The Vedas are not Hinduism. They are Vedic religion
     
  10. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    Ahhh.

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  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    There are over 10000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons incluring children and much land under occupation. Let the Europeans and Americans stop their colonial occupation and return home.

    Home invasion and kidnapping are both crimes.
     
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Israel is not "already there" in the US or Canadian sense, as the un-cleansed population of what you seem to be thinking of as "natives" is still a major factor, and as Israel has yet to establish boundaries or desist from further expansions.

    So once again: are you recommending that Israel adopt (or continue to implement?) the displacement policies and tactics of the US and Canada with regard to the resident population it is currently displacing?
     
  13. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    A quick note:
    I'd much rather be on this forum discussing actual science, but since my latest post in physics has gone unanswered to date, I'll just chill here instead.

    They can start by not teaching their kids to demonize the jewish race and seek martyrdom.

    I think it's fair to demand that Israel accept Hamas as the government of Gaza and open its borders. But there are 2 completely reasonable conditions to demand in exchange:

    1) That Hamas acts to police the territory it governs and to actively prevent and disrupt all attempts to mount terrorist attacks against Israel from within this territory.

    2) An understanding is reached with the world about how to deal with Gaza in the event Hamas breaches its part of any ceasefire deal. If Hamas is going to use a ceasefire to arm itself to the teeth, dig tunnels into Israel and prepare for an all out war, then either the international community must commit to direct military intervention on Israel's behalf, or they must recognize Israel's right to a strong military response.

    So you're saying Iran had no involvement with the west prior to 1953? No doubt imposing the Shah was a mistake, as was America's support for the Ayatollah when the communists started what later became the "Islamic Revolution". However, up until 1953, not only did Iran thrive from relations with the west, but the west also protected Iranian territory from a massive Soviet land grab. Stalin was prepared to carve out a chunk for himself until the US sent an aircraft carrier to put them on notice.

    What good is it signing a deal and not complying with it? Israel should sign the NTP as well then, and declare Dimona off limits like the Iranians have done with their most sensitive sites.

    A couple of decades ago Iran was staging massive human wave attacks into Iraq, hoping to expel Hussein and replace him with an islamic regime much like the one in Iran. Now one can argue that Saddam invaded them first and provoked them, but can you name me an instance in which Israel invaded someone who wasn't already attacking them? Besides, Iran is threatening the destruction of a fellow UN member, I don't see Israel doing that (nor advocating the destruction of the Palestinians).

    We have every right not to trade with someone we feel is hostile, belligerent, and close to the possession of WMD's. That's not colonialism, it's a demand that Iran's islamic rulers show a basic respect for other nations and cultures before they can be trusted with potentially lethal technologies.

    I believe they have already made those decisions, and continue to review those decisions on a regular basis.

    Yeah, there are plenty of accounts of the history of IAEA's investigation into Iran's activities. You will find the vast majority of them begin with the revelation of Iran's nuclear program by Iranian dissidents, the ones you've reflexively labeled lying propagandists. Not worth my time to Google it for you, you're just as capable of digging this info up as I am.

    And again, those who lived there for untold generations are only a small fraction of the population that today calls itself Palestinian. There has been a continuous jewish presence in Israel for thousands of years, but most Israelis descend from European immigrants and jewish arab refugees. There has been a long term Palestinian presence in the same land, but most Palestinians also descend from arab immigrants who arrived at the same time as the jews. The "we're natives here" argument can be equally applied and refuted for both sides.

    You pass my accounting of the 1948 war off as a myth, and your verifying source is an opinionated blogger? This guy casually dismisses a great deal of evidence in claiming there was no jewish diaspora under the Romans, and replaces this evidence with speculation that "they probably all just converted to islam or something". Great, thanks for nothing. I don't see any need to spend the time providing you with facts and resources if this is all you're going to come up with to support your arguments.

    This argument fully enshrines the desire of the arabs to avoid their share of responsibility for the Palestinian Nakba. Sure Israel's existence comes at the exclusion of the Palestinians, but only if you assume the arabs don't have any responsibility to pony up land or absorb "refugees" born on their lands as much as 60 years ago.

    This again demonstrates the root of the conflict- the Palestinians are nothing but a tool for the arabs to establish hegemony over land they consider holy to islam. There's your conflict in a nutshell.

    So you accused me of being a mouthpiece for CNN and Fox, neither of which I watch except on very rare occasions because of the poor quality info they provide (too much celebrity gossip crap). I pointed out that everything you say is a repetition of what the terrorists and their apologizers have already said, you asked for an example, and I just gave it.

    And again I ask, have any of them grown in size in recent years relative to the rest of the population? In Israel, the population of Israeli arab citizens has grown in proportion to the rest of the population. The treatment of other religions in muslim countries is to slowly grind them down until a token population at best is all that remains. Lebanon was not so long ago a majority christian nation and even they couldn't survive the muslim onslaught. No, the arabs are light years away from understanding what it means to live in a secular, democratic, multicultural, multiethnic state.

    Yes, France has millions of muslim citizens crammed into ghettos far from the economic activity of its cities, prevented from seeking ordinary jobs and discriminated against at every turn. Their treatment is far worse than what Israeli arab citizens receive, even though both groups are accorded "equal rights" under the law. Just because France systematically ignores its social problems and talks the big talk about racial equality, that doesn't mean they make any real effort to put it into practice. France has always been like that.

    So you're admitting that the arabs launched a pre-emptive war against the jews in 1948. You're aware what the world thinks of pre-emptive wars these days, aren't you?

    Oh and the Palestinian national tale doesn't contain any myths of its own? A history of suffering gives the jews every right to protect themselves from those who seek to cause them further suffering, such as the arabs in 1948.

    I have been saying from the start that the arabs must be part of the solution as they have, from the beginning, been part of the problem as well. They must give up land, absorb refugees and provide financial compensation for the mess they helped create. Israel can't afford to provide all these things on its own, and there is no reason why it should be obliged to.

    Nope, they sold it fair and square. And the arabs never had a right of return to lands they sold to the jews either. Their demand for national hegemony over land they already abandoned and sold is what caused the crisis in the first place.

    Ok, and if they return to violence, would that not render them even more illegitimate than before? Or do we all just turn our heads and look the other way as usual?
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2009
  14. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Nope, Israel already has a large territory on which they can draw a border, and the vast majority of those living inside said borders are already jewish. So once they eventually do draw a border, I don't see why their destruction is so imminent like some here want to pretend.
     
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    So the answer to the question is yes, you recommend they displace the natives from as much land as possible using whatever best works, draw a border around whatever they've cleansed, and declare a country;

    or, in other words, continue doing what they've been doing until somebody stops them.

    And apparently there is no chance of negotiating with them until they have been stopped - with regard to the Palestinians they have cleansed and penned, they have yet to keep a single ceasefire, or abide by a single agreement, or hold to a single treaty, in the sixty years of their existence.

    Is that a fair summary? If not, what specifically is wrong with it?
    Note for the foreigners: it's not fair to assert that Americans simply cannot see irony - it's only this one category of Americans.

    Although one indicator of higher level mental functioning in an animal is the ability to recognize the self in a mirror.

    As an exercise, for history buffs: when was the last time Iran attacked any other country? Blockades count.
    Egypt in '56 and marginally in '67, Lebanon twice, occupied for 18 years once, set a bunch of mine fields in farmland and used cluster bombs on civilians, and Gaza continually for a while now. The settlements are of course invasions, as are the annexations of land for walls and roads and stuff in Gaza and the West Bank.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2009
  16. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    I guess you support the underdog simply because they are the underdog (expect Israel is the island in a sea of Arab nations). Anyway, I understand they just have to end terrorism.
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Are you saying David was a terrorist?

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  18. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    No, Goliath was.
     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks.

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    Stone throwing has always been the weapon of choice for those fighting the imperialists.
     
  20. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, and Goliath was a Imperalist Arab.
     
  21. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    And, for dealing with the indiscretions of Islam.
     
  22. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    No, I recommend they leave the West Bank and cede a small amount of additional territory to the Palestinians, with the remainder of Palestinian territory to come from that of neighbouring arab states. My contention is, given that land is available for the Palestinians to settle outside Israel's 1948 borders, there is no reason to gloat that these people will one day overwhelm the jewish state. They won't, just as we in Canada and the US have managed to preserve our own heritage and won't permit anyone to flood us with foreign immigrants.

    No it's not, because it ignores what the arabs tried to do to the jews in the first place, which is how this mess started.

    Well then you must be a lowly functioning animal to call me an American, because you have incorrectly identified me.

    Iran was attacking Iraqi Kurds together with the Turks a few years ago. In addition, Iran decided to spend another 8 years fighting Iraq after they had already driven Saddam off their lands.

    Terrorists were crossing from the Sinai into Israel back in '56, with full Egyptian backing. In '67 Egypt gave every possible indication it was on the verge of a fullscale assault short of launching the initial barrage.

    In the first instance Arafat was using Lebanon as a military base from which to stage repeated assaults on Israel's north. Israel certainly overstayed its welcome, but Syria was there before Israel and remained behind after Israel left. In the second instance, two Israeli soldiers were abducted and several others were killed, and they were responding to a rocket attack on Israel's north when they got ambushed. Again, it's never Israel that fires the first shot- they have nothing to gain by doing so.

    That territory was controlled by Jordan when it attacked Israel in 1967, and Israel had every right to occupy it thereafter. The settlements should be taken down and Israel should find a way to abandon those territories, but given that Jordan fired first, it's not an invasion. It's spoils of war that the international community decided Israel should not get to keep, because they're not Russian or British.
     
  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    They have already refused that option, and are expanding their settlements. So - - -
    This mess started with the Zionists doing unto the Arabs. No point in going back that far.
    Mea muchima culpa. But I wasn't looking into a mirror.
    They didn't start that.
    They were invaded - full scale military assault. They didn't start that either.
    Israel was also running terrorists, and expanding its borders as was its wont - a technicality, true, but Israel started both those wars.
    The first invasion of Lebanon, from which Israel never completely withdrew and left all those mines etc, was originally legit in some sense. The second, on the trumped up and weeks-planned pivot of the first available incident, was not. Israel had been provoking right along. And Israel has a history - beginning with its founding in terrorism - of firing the first shots. In the current battle with Hamas, for example, Israel has killed first coming out of every extended time of mutual no killing.
    But Iran's throwback of a full scale assault is ?
    Besides, again on a technicality, Israel started the Six Day War.

    Bottom line: Israel has been and still is expanding its territory and annexing other people's land by force. Iran is doing nothing like that, and has not for centuries. Since WWII, the spoils of war have not justified expansion of territory. And these latest settlements and invasions and encroaching walls are not even that.
     

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