An Application of Popper's Paradox of Tolerance

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by danshawen, Mar 7, 2018.

  1. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

    I didn't know, this paradox actually had a name, much less that Karl Popper took credit for it.

    Now for the application of the Paradox:

    So, if you follow the tolerance paradox, it is obvious that:

    political tolerance = political correctness,

    and that, like tolerance, too much of the former will inevitably lead to:

    political intolerance = political incorrectness

    Political intolerance is also known as "hate speech". Hate speech hates nothing more than speech that is politically correct, or tolerant speech, and so left to its own, hate speech will completely overwhelm moderating voices by means of increasing amplitude or volume, or by repetition, until the hate speech prevails. You may have seen this happen live on Sciforums once or twice, but I'm thinking more along the lines of the current propaganda of the Alt-Right, or right wing, protectionist, neo-nazi, known in various parts of the world by other names.

    The same paradox could be applied to an analysis of any propaganda, and this is why you should be very careful about what sources you select to get your news from.

    That's all I have to say. I'm interested in anyone's take on it here. Does this help you to better understand what is at stake in the Alt-Right's politics/ political philosophy and where it is going?

    Thanks in advance.
     
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  3. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    Is it like diametric extremes bear similar values?
    Like for instance fascist and communist regimes, despite their political polarities, gave rise to dictatorships that are practically identical?
     
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  5. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    Only one of those political polarities (intolerance) will obliterate its counterpart (tolerance). This application is also a means for sorting out extremism. Tolerance is the opposite of exremism. We are discussing this in the most general terms. Intolerance excludes tolerance. Political incorrectness excudes political correctness.

    The choice of the General Philosophy forum for this discussion is deliberate. If I wanted trouble, I could have posted the application in "Politics". My hope is this view will be generally useful there as well.
     
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  7. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    I believe either extreme is fatal, whether it be the far right or the far left. Either way you turn you are facing a drop into the abyss. It's easy to sit on one side and look at the other, quite another thing to see the extremes of one's own politics.
     
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  8. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    I've often mentioned this without knowing the source. It's like the alt-right complaining that universities are being hypocritical about free speech when they refuse to host them.
     
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  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The abyss on the left is a theoretical and distant possibility that may some day in the future present a hazard to American citizens.

    The abyss on the right is currently sitting in the White House, enjoying majority control of Congress, and framing most of the news from major news media.

    Tolerance is not an extreme or absolute position. There is no requirement that one tolerate everything in order to be labeled "tolerant". Moderation in all things, and adult judgment in all politics.
     
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  10. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    It only looks that way because you're looking at it through your own lenses. It might be a necessary correction.
     
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  11. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    A racist palate cleanser between decent presidents?
     
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  12. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    A functional totality. Everyone is included.
     
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  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Nonsense. It's an easily demonstrated physical fact. The abyss on the right is fascism, and that's the governing ideology of the current President and Congressional majority Party. The abyss on the left would be something like Maoist socialism, and the US doesn't even have a growing trade union movement or a leftwing mass market news outfit.
    The US is so far swung to the right that a national health care policy requiring the purchase of insurance from capitalist corporations is called "leftwing" in the media, and it's not a joke.
    It's a continuation of a forty year trend.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  14. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    Good luck!
     
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  15. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    Fascism is a strong word. I assume you are posting this from the detention center where Trump and Congress silence all political rivals.
     
  16. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    The problem is labeling those with whom you disagree as Alt-Right, Racist, Misogynists, Homophobes, whatever. I mean, if you want to win the argument, just claim the high ground before the discussion even begins.

    Strangely, the left seems to have become puritans, a religion of its own making.
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    ? That doesn't happen until they win.
    It does happen when they win. At which point the "necessary correction" becomes a bit more of a challenge - it's much easier to prevent the endstate of this trend than recover from it.
    The current questions are whether Trump can be removed from office without violence, and whether the State gerrymandering can be beaten by enough to render the Republican Party a minority in the House before the budget manipulations wreck the agencies necessary for recovery so far.

    Because this trend in governance cannot be tolerated if one wishes to preserve tolerance - or governance - in the US.
     
  18. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    Interesting.
     
  19. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    You're predicting the worst and want to control the world. I think people are more frightened of the Left than they are of the Right, which is why Trump will possibly win the next election.
     
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    ? Control the world?
    I'm just pointing out the direction the US is going, and the nature of the destination. It's not rocket science - you have a fascist clown President and a fascism dominated Congress, where do you think that's headed?

    As far as removing this President without violence, it's a real question - obviously he needs to be removed, and he is legally impeachable and removable five times over (the Qatar deal alone - - - - ), but there is a real possibility at this stage of this kind of game that the strongman will simply refuse to subject himself to legal proceedings, or leave office if impeached and convicted, or in this case even if voted out in three years. So then the US has what for it is a unique problem, faced by many democracies before but never yet by this one.

    Let's say Trump refuses to be deposed under oath, or respond to subpoena - by Mueller, or even by Stormy's attorneys as was approved recently (a question settled long ago in Bill Clinton's case - he's legally required to answer questions under oath in both those cases).
    If this congress is faced with the choice of tolerating this new kind of President, or imposing the rule of law, what do you think will happen?
     
  21. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    That's a good question. Do you think people would take to the streets? Again, who is more frightening to the American public, Trump or the Left?
     
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    There isn't any politically powerful Left in the US, and certainly no Left alternative to Trump, so that's irrelevant. No such choice exists.

    The question is one of tolerance, as in the OP. Does Congress - and then the US - tolerate Trump - a large and possibly irrevocable step toward losing their freedom to tolerate things by choice at all, as Popper noted - or pay the price of intolerance of his behavior in office, whatever it may be?

    My guess? The Congress and then the US will choose to tolerate Trump, at least for the time being.

    The psychologically interesting matter will be watching the justifications this, for not doing something about him - for sitting back and watching the completely predictable and predicted unfold. Blaming others for the the consequences of one's tolerant inaction is normally easier than blaming them for the consequences of one's intolerant actions - one reason for the popularity of tolerance when it prescribes inaction. But these are likely to be fairly bad consequences.
     
  23. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps offering the people an alternative they can accept, the left would win in the next election.

    What are the psychological state of affairs now? Are we in denial?
     

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