An Aside Regarding Homosexuality

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Balerion, Mar 2, 2014.

  1. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Syne said:
    My belief is that people are free to make their own mistakes. I am not the final arbiter of anyone's morality but my own.

    @anyone
    That is an excellent philosophy. Don't you agree?


    @Wyn
    Shooting Heroin up your veins is always pleasurable.
    Never done it myself, and probably never will, but it's said to be like sex one hundred fold.
    Most people, when they weigh up the consequences of experiencing that pleasure,
    decide that their life is better without it.
     
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  3. Bells Staff Member

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    So I am responsible for you being judgemental..?

    Is that such a bad thing? What's wrong with being freed from suffering? Unless you think it's better to wallow in suffering and sadness for a higher purpose?

    Ermm okay. Because paying taxes and traffic laws is somehow connected to having sex?

    Who is? And how? Why are you laughing at the thought that others are suffering?

    You have yet to explain how or why homosexuality is immoral.

    Not upset. You seem to want us to be upset.

    Do what? Disagree with you?
     
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  5. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I can understand that. But language changes slowly--the results of forcing it to change faster are usually only good for laughs, such as "Ebonics" for AAVE (African-American Vernacular English). Patience is as much a virtue for an entire culture as it is for individuals.

    Of all the memes in our society that cause grief to the LGBT community (lesbian-gay-bisexual-transgender, apparently the official new term in the USA where acronyms are more safely coined than new words), I don't think that husband-wife is anywhere near the top of their list.

    Legally married lesbians seem to routinely refer to their spouses as "wives" without complaining, and I've seen a few gay men call each other "husband" too. Why not?

    She is little more than a textbook example of a troll.
    • She adds no information or other value to the discussions she enters.
    • When challenged, she claims to be the injured party.
    • She makes people angry, which impedes the progress of the discussion.
    • She criticizes the words of others in a vague way without actually offering an alternative.
    • When asked for elaboration, she responds either A) that it is unnecessary because her point is obvious, well-known and not controversial or B) that there's no point to it because every other member of SciForums is hostile to her for reasons she carefully avoids explaining.
    Trolls don't do that. It's in their handbook.

    Trolls don't do that. It's in their handbook.

    Trolls love it when they manage to bring the discourse down to their own level, because it means they've succeeded in reducing or even destroying its value.

    How about: all the time? The USA has destroyed what little stability there ever was in the Middle East (by turning Iraq into a Shiite theocracy aligned with Iran and Syria), turned most of the world's Muslim population against us (even in "moderate" countries like Indonesia people are sending money to charities that build madrassas for Al Qaeda), antagonized most of our allies, destroyed our own economy (spending $3T that we got by borrowing it from China), and created an unaccountable power structure that reads our e-mail and looks at our naked bodies in airports... and the excuse is that Saddam and Osama are dead... although the power vacuum they left was quickly filled with even crazier people.

    Huh??? I traveled in Europe during the Vietnam War and I was very hurt by the anti-American opinions that were hurled at me. Even though I was as opposed to the war as they were, I had to take some of the responsibility for my country being the way it was.

    Maybe I should have marched on more picket lines, I dunno. I always marched for civil rights, but I was a little reluctant to participate in the anti-war demonstrations. If you disagree with someone who believes that violence is a permissible way to resolve a disagreement, it seems like the stupidest possible thing you can do is tell him that you disagree with him.

    I never anticipated that being able to understand several foreign languages would not always be an asset. Many Americans simply told people they were Canadian.

    And she never will. She is extremely careful to reveal as little as possible about herself and her personality. Again, classic troll profile. If you let people know who you are, then it will be more difficult to switch sides in an argument for the purpose of derailing it.

    It's been pretty firmly established that the arrival of HIV into the human population was caused by a human eating the meat of a monkey infected with SIV (simian immunodeficiency virus) which then mutated. They've even identified the date and the spot where it happened with surprising precision. (A major port on the Congo River early in the 20th century, whence people took it everywhere.)

    Trolls never give real answers. They just obfuscate.

    Indeed. It seems that despite the opacity of her writing, you've nonetheless managed to divine one of her traits.

    Not the first time. Again: classic troll behavior.

    Sometimes trolls sink so deeply into obfuscation that even they forget what they're talking about.

    Trolls never explain.

    Bingo! Trolls draw their energy from other people's confusion, frustration and anger. It's a form of parasitism.
     
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  7. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    No it is NOT trivial. 3/4's of all HIV cases globally are transmitted thru heterosexual sex. Which totally blows out of the water your lie that it is just a gay disease. Ofcourse anyone can select individual countries to skew the demographics towards one group or another. But then we're not talking individual countries. We're talking worldwide.
     
  8. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    13,642
    I recognized Wynn's trolling techniques the first few months I started posting here. I'm glad a moderator has finally confirmed it. Is there nothing that can be done about it?
     
  9. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    53,966
    It's not that great. It's mostly in the body, which is relaxing, but also disconcerting since you feel a certain loss of control. In contrast, Marijuana actually does something to your brain which is better, and your body stays more or less the same.
     
  10. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    1,621
    Your brain may stay more or less the same on marijuana, not mine, I think for every individual it is different. For some pot acts as a stimulant and for others a depressant, for example. I cannot even function on the marijuana they sell in the dispensaries in Washington, just two tokes and I have to go sleep it off.
     
  11. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

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    1,784
    That’s not true, Syne. Social acceptance is very significant.

    You are only looking for information that confirms your opinion. Even when you’re presented with evidence debunking it, you continue to dig in your heels. Denial and defensiveness are characteristics of insecurity. People with higher self-esteem are more willing to alter their opinions. Facts are important to them because they value truth over their own beliefs.

    If you changed your opinion, would that undermine your future credibility? I don’t think it would, Syne. I think it would strengthen it.

    I’m not judgin'. I’m just sayin'.
     
  12. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    10,890
    Indeed, why not, however, keep in mind that we're dealing with ten year olds still grappling with the question, not confident adults - which was the point that I was making, that the language associated with heterosexual marriage and husband/wife. The casual assumptions like "[boy] will grow up and marry a girl" that we use in every day language introduce expectations and apply pressure. I'm barely coherent at the moment so I hope this is making sense - There's more detail in the (IIRC) second link I provided.
     
  13. Balerion Banned Banned

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    8,596
    Fraggle,

    While I agree with what you wrote, I think that's the kind of stuff we should be looking to eliminate from our own behavior. Spending a whole post calling wynn a troll doesn't accomplish anything. Either take action, or avoid slinging insults.

    I know, I know, I've called people trolls more than most. But if we're going to make this place more civil, we all need to follow the rules.
     
  14. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    To be more precise - it is the use of language which enforces gender stereotypes during that formative age that can cause problems. The need is to eliminate gender stereotypes (Full-stop would be preferable, surrounding sexuality would suffice).
     
  15. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    Each moderator only moderates his/her own subforum. The exceptions are the ones with no dedicated moderator like "About the Members." Wynn is careful to behave respectably on my Linguistics subforum, and has even contributed a few interesting notes. I also moderate Arts & Culture, but by its very nature it's difficult to perform a bannable offense there.

    And of course there are other exceptions. Any of us is urged to jump in anywhere to deal with pornography, advertising, etc.

    Discourse evolves rather quickly. When these children have children of their own, they will grow up in a much different society with much different attitudes.

    Counting my own, I've watched four generations of Americans grow up (more or less

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    ). Many of the "casual assumptions" each generation was taught were startlingly different from those that their parents were taught. My parents, for example, were raised to be racists, and they had a hard time shaking the stereotypes. Yet they bent over backwards to teach me that people are all the same, even though in a thoughtless moment I occasionally heard the N-word escape their lips.

    I had to think long and hard about that before I wrote it. I decided that it was necessary and appropriate because quite a few people were trying to figure her out, and having no luck. Everyone's basic error was in believing that she was being sincere and actually expressing thoughts and attitudes that guide her through life. Perhaps since I'm an amateur linguist (not to mention one of the oldest people here so I've heard a lot of bullshit), I picked up telltales that the rest of you missed. I'm also an editor so I'm accustomed to looking for someone's personality in their writing--and the personality Wynn displays is clearly fictitious. I'm left wondering if perhaps she believes it herself; many people do.

    As noted already, I can't take action in another moderator's territory, unless she's stalking somebody or advertising her own book.

    My purpose was not to insult her, but to help the rest of you understand who she is and what she's trying to do. You've wasted a lot of time believing that you're arguing with her, when in fact you're arguing with this month's Straw Man. That's why you never get anywhere.

    Civility is important, but so is keeping the trolls on tight leashes. The majority of our members are rather young, so rude rhetoric doesn't bother them very much. But trolling can bring a discussion to a screeching halt, as it has right here.

    I don't know what it's like over there in the land of Hobbits and Greek gods (I hope you enjoy the stereotypes your TV and movie productions create

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    ), but over here we're still trying to stamp out stereotypes that go back to the 17th century, such as the lazy, stupid Afro-American.

    But it can be done. It's rare to hear an ethnic insult about Irishmen, which were rife 125 years ago. Considering that in the latest polls a majority of Americans support gay marriage, the insulting stereotypes will probably survive primarily as rude jokes, like the incredibly rude jokes Mexican-American and Asian-American comics tell about their own communities.
     
  16. Balerion Banned Banned

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    I know full well who wynn is. I don't need you to tell me that.

    Does this forum's moderator not have an internet connection? Consider dropping them a line about dealing with the problem.

    That's pretty flimsy. By that logic, I could call you an idiot and excuse it by saying that my purpose was not to insult, but to inform. Obviously, that shouldn't fly.

    Again, I don't disagree with you. But there's no point.

    And what leash, exactly, is this? Calling her a troll doesn't change her behavior for the better. The only thing that might actually help is moderation. Why haven't you considered starting a secret thread back there your secret room about it? I mean, if it has come to you calling her out specifically as a troll, then maybe she should be the subject of a long and thoughtful discussion among the site leaders. Don't you think?
     
  17. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    53,966
    I did say it effects your brain, but it doesn't do things like alter your basic functions like breathing the way heroin does.
     
  18. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    15,058
    Nope. Just ask any heroin junkie once things start to go real bad.


    It's tough being enlightened, innit ...


    Your powers of projection are absolutely astounding.


    And you are an example of someone who is liberated from suffering, on account of having had sex?
    You - enlightened?
    Rly?


    I said - "I'm having a laff, sort of, seeing how you are creating your own suffering here."


    No, the only thing that would help is that people who propose themselves to be enlightened, would actually be enlightened.

    There is one thing I can't stand, and that's Buddha/God impersonators. That's why you get what you get.


    No worries there. Suit yourselves.
     
  19. Bells Staff Member

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    24,023
    Wynn, you have decided to participate in this thread. I'd suggest you actually participate instead of these one line childish arguments you have decided to use.
    The only person responsible for your behaviour in this thread is you. Blaming others for your own shortcomings is just weak.


    Are you?

    The only person complaining about people having sex here is you. You are the only person who used 'suffering' in the discussion. No one else has. You made a bizarre comment about sex and higher purpose. No one else has. If someone responds to your bizarre comments about sex in general, responding with an insult is really unbecoming.

    And as I said, few people here can even understand what you are talking about. Not because you are so enlightened, but because you cannot seem to understand the actual subject matter and because you are making bizarre comments that don't really have much to do with the subject to avoid answering any questions asked to you about your bizarre statements. Which begs the question.. Why do you participate in threads that a) you do not understand and b) makes you so uncomfortable that you rather act so.. ermm.. strangely.. than to discuss the actual subject matter? Aside from complaining about homosexual sex being unsanitary without any explanation of why it is more unsanitary than anything else, you haven't really offered much aside from this obvious dislike and discomfort of the thought of people having sex for reasons other than to procreate - you know - as you saw it as being for a higher purpose.

    Perhaps you should avoid such topics if it makes you uncomfortable - so much so that you are refusing to discuss the actual subject? If you persist in behaving this way, you could find yourself being moderated.

    What makes you believe that you are enlightened?

    Who is impersonating God? What does this have to do with this thread? If you wish to discuss impersonating your imaginary deities, perhaps you should do so in the Religion forum.
     
  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    36,784
    Mod Hat — The obvious point

    Mod Hat — The obvious point

    What is this thread supposed to be about? That is to say, despite it looking very suspiciously like a target thread, it also seems to be an all-purpose soapbox about unrelated issues.

    Perhaps this thread should find its topic, and at least make an effort to stay close to that subject.

    Wait, wait ... okay, there really isn't any perhaps about it.
     
  21. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    20,834
    That's it? That's your "moral" reason for being anti-gay? LOL. From your link:

    "What to do? Another study suggests the greater use of prevention approaches -- such as condoms, more medical treatment for those who are already infected and use of medication that prevent infection"

    Wait a minute, doesn't your religion prohibit the use of condoms?
     
  22. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    13,642
    Nothing a 75 cent condom can't fix. In any case, as stated in your own article:

    "The experts were quick to note that, worldwide, it is heterosexual men and women who are by far the majority of those who are infected with HIV.''

    So why aren't you condemning heterosexual sex for the harm IT causes? Sounds like a double standard to me.
     
  23. Balerion Banned Banned

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    8,596
    What is a target thread? I was invited to start this thread by your moderator friend. Take it up with him if you have a problem. Also, back off a step.

    By the way, your attitude in the mod note is a problem. Figure a way out to be a moderator without being a dick.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014

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