Imagine a world without religion. What sort of place d'you think it would be? D'you think humans generally need religion/spiritual belief/faith in order to gain/maintain a sense of morality and to feel spiritual love etc? Or would they be more wicked and cruel than they are already, if they didn't generally have it? What do you think is the actual purpose of religion? Is it for the purpose of spiritual enlightenment and awakening, or is it an attempt to gain spiritual/political, control/manipulation of the people while offering them a spiritual/psychological panacea as the premise? Do you agree with the universal diversity of religions, faiths and beliefs? Or do you believe in one God, one religion for all mankind? Do you believe that some or all religions are absolutely truthful, good/holy and without political agendas? Or do you think that some or all religions are inherently evil, with hidden agendas? I'd like for us to thrash out this subject of religion seriously. Being a deep one I have put in a few suggestions as questions. Please do not use quotes from books or religious dogma in your replies. I'll post my sh** later. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ [sig]The crows are already stoned[sig]
Here is something basic - no 7 day week. How about a 10 day week that includes a 3 day weekend - that could be good. I don't think too many things would change. It is said that 99% of Americans believe in God, but that most only see religion at weddings and funerals. I've worked for the same company for the past 16 years and as far as I can remember religion has never been a topic of conversation. I'm sure no one at my office knows my religious views, as I don't know theirs. It simply isn't something that plays an important role in the lives of most people.
Wizard, thanks for replying. But you haven't really attempted to adress any of the issues i mentioned. Religions are the bedrock of societies worldwide, whether practiced or not. The influences of religions on the whole of mankind, from history to the present-day, are subconciously ingrained. Even in aethists. So while it may appear that it doesn't really play a role in peoples lives, do you seriously think that is all there is to it? How about your opinion on my original suggestions?
Sorry Tab, you are quite right. My time was short yesterday and that was the first thing that sprang to mind. I'll think on it properly.
I'll separate my answer to your first set of questions as follows: With regards to gaining/maintaining a sense of morality: Althouth I believe that an individual's religion/spritual beliefs/faith can play a major role in determining the "level" or "degree" of one's morality, in general, at this point in human history, I do not think that all humans "need" religion, spiritual beliefs or faith in order to gain/maintain a sense of morality. I do think that individual humans need "instruction," to gain/maintain a sense of "morality," whether that instruction comes through experiencing the consequences of one's own actions or from the instruction of others who are more experienced and knowledgable in the ways of morality. In general, I think that if humans are somehow sheltered from experiencing the consequences of their own actions or they do not heed the instruction of others who are more experienced and knowledgable in the ways of morality, then yes, generally speaking, left to their own devices, humans would be more wicked and cruel. With regards to gaining/maintaining a sense of spiritual love: I do not think that one needs religion or faith to feel spiritual love. However, I think that an individual human first has to be "open" to a sense of the spiritual and then "acknowledge" their sense of the spiritual in order to accept and realize that they are "feeling" spiritual love (not necessarily the same as belonging to an organized religion or holding a particular faith). I think that the particular purpose of "religion" depends on how one defines "religion." Once religion is defined, then the particular purpose of "a" religion might also depend on the particular "religion" which might be the topic of discussion at any given time. I accept and understand the fact that there is and will always be a universal "diversity" of religions, faiths and beliefs. I also accept and understand the fact that there is and always will be only one God and only one way to God in the afterlife. I believe that salvation through Jesus Christ is the absolute truth, good/holy and without political agenda. As far as various religions go, my answer would vary. A world living in salvation through Jesus Christ, without religion, would be heaven. [This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 05, 2000).]
Hi Tab, it's your favorite Jesus freak! Good questions, dude. Well, if you mean a world without ORGANIZED religion, it may well be a more peaceful place. If you mean a world without spirituality, I'd say it'd be an impossible one. We would have never existed. And if we were to exist, assuming that the atheist evolutionary arguement had any legitamacy to it, then we would definately be very different creatures than we are now. Yes I think that we do, though we all don't realize it, or realize that this is what affects us and shapes our lives here and eternally. I don't necessarily think that we would be more wicked or cruel with a total absence of spiritual influence. Currently we are influenced in both directions from two different sources. I'd say that we are plenty evil and cruel because of the evil spiritual influence today. I guess, and it's totally a guess, that we would behave more like wild animals, so we wouldn't really see or perceive good or evil, we would just react in a survival of the fittest way you know? Like we might just eat some of our young or something, and not think twice about it, but we wouldn't perceive it as evil or good, just the thing to do? I think that the intended purpose of God in providing us with His Son and His Word is the former reason. I think that the intended purpose of man in regards to organized religion can be for both the former and the latter reasons, and of course the difference being in that man's intent. One God, one faith, one truth, one Saviour. I do not believe that there exist ANY organized religions that are absolutely truthful, good/holy and without political agendas. I also do not think that in terms of a man's intent within a religion, that there are many that are inherently evil with hidden agendas besides some cult activity. From the standpoint of a spiritual influence though, I do believe that an evil spirit with an evil deceptive agenda does use ALL religions in some way to try to separate us all from our one God. I tried my best homey. Looking forward to hearing your sh** as usual. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!" I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
<font color = "red">tablariddim,</font> <img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif">Wow! Those are fun questions. <font color = "red">"Imagine a world without religion. What sort of place d'you think it would be? ..." </font> Religion has played such an important role in our (mans) history and social development, it's really hard to think of ourselves evolving to our present state of mind without its past involvement. I imagine we might still be nomadic hunters had we no religion. But this is not to say we would be nomadic hunters. We might still have progressed. <font color = "red"> "D'you think humans generally need religion/spiritual belief/faith in order to gain/maintain a sense of morality and to feel spiritual love etc?... </font> No. I believe that many people are born with the capacity of all those FEELINGS; on the other hand, there have always been others who haven't the ability to FEEL such things--such as compassion. <font color = "red"> ...Or would they be more wicked and cruel than they are already, if they didn't generally have it? </font> That's a good question because it seems that religion has outline morality for many cultures and governments, playing an important role in laws which governed society as a whole. I would guess that man would evolve into a higher form of awareness. I suppose you should give us your definition of "wicked." <font color = "red"> "What do you think is the actual purpose of religion? Is it for the purpose of spiritual enlightenment and awakening, or is it an attempt to gain spiritual/political, control/manipulation of the people while offering them a spiritual/psychological panacea as the premise?" </font> It depends on who is using it and for what purpose for which they are using it. I would say that all of the above are applicable answers to your question. <font color = "red"> "Do you believe that some or all religions are absolutely truthful, good/holy and without political agendas? Or do you think that some or all religions are inherently evil, with hidden agendas?" </font> Once again, you have answered your own question; it just depends on who is using religion and which goals they have in mind. <font color = "red"> Wizard </font> <font color = "red"> "Here is something basic - no 7 day week. How about a 10 day week that includes a 3 day weekend - that could be good." </font> <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif"> Better yet, a 10-day weekend and a 3-day workweek. ------------------ It's all very large.
tab Please note that while the 10 day week idea might seem flippant at first, it does support your last statement and indicate how religion has a deeply ingrained effect on all our lives. If we had not had the seven days of creation story in the bible, how would we have organized our calendar. This is trivial and is only an example. I will repeat my belief that the root cause of all religions is the desire to believe that there is something more beyond death. This seems to be the common factor in every religion. I think man has a very strong survival instinct and is basically optimistic. Without these characteristics we would have sank into depression long ago and committed mass suicide. But our strong instincts cause us a problem when we are faced with the apparent inevitability that we cannot ultimately survive. Our imagination and creativity will reach out for anything that will help us overcome this traumatic end. I believe religions are the result. Now imagine the scenario where religions do not exist, we still have to deal with how to face death, and I will assume here that the idea of an afterlife has not been conceived. Firstly life would become very precious. We would be very aware that we do not exist for very long and would take much greater effort to protect and prolong our lives. Contrast this with the religious viewpoint, where the attitude to earthly life is relatively callous, simply because it is felt that most of our existence is in the afterlife, and there would be great joy to meet god. Wars I suspect would become very rare. Most would be much more reluctant to risk their short lives for political gain. The mindset of ruling politicians would be sufficiently different, significantly limiting the use of warfare compared to current day. Without the past restrictive religious influence on science, human scientific and technological progress would probably be centuries ahead. Consider Galileo who was tortured and then imprisoned for the rest of his life for questioning religious doctrine. Consider the theories of Copernicus which were outlawed by the church. These I suspect are only the tip of the iceberg that became public knowledge. Suppression of any scientific discoveries that did not comply with church beliefs were ruthlessly destroyed and potential scientists threatened. How many other discoveries could have been made centuries ago if there had been an open spirit of free scientific investigation, without fear of persecution. On morality: I see no problem here. Religions were created by man and man created all the rules of morality as part of these religions. We clearly want to live by some form of moral code, and so such a code would always exist. It is also not in our best interests of survival to be wicked to each other, we would use our inteligence. Most of us enjoy love, tenderness, trade, and cooperation. These are some the basics of human nature, progress, and survival. [This message has been edited by Wizard (edited February 05, 2000).]
Wizard, For the record, Galileo was never tortured, he was merely scared into submission. They took him down to the torture chambers and showed him all the tools -- after which he promptly recanted, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest. Incidentally, while under house arrest he was barred from all astronomical activity, but ironically enough was allowed to dabble in mechanics. I say ironically, because his work helped contribute to Newton's Principia which finally gave Copernican ideas due credibility. As for the rest of your post, I basically agree, and see no need to re-state it in my own words. ------------------ I am; therefore I think.
Thank Boris, I remember torture being involved somehow - a threat is sufficient. I also remember one famous scientist being executed but can't find the reference. Any ideas?
Wizard, Well, one famous example is Giordano Bruno. He was actualy burned at the stake (literally!) for professing Copernican theories. The ironic thing is that Bruno was a cleric, and a very devout one at that. He was so devout and principled, that he refused to recant as that would constitute a sin of deception, compounded by a rejection of God's gifts (he considered the Copernican theory to be one of them.) The Church decided to make an example of the poor sap, so as to give its own Ptolemaic doctrine more sticking power with the rest of the clergy. And the rest is history. (Incidentally, Galileo was very aware of Bruno's fate -- which might have significantly contributed to his decision.) To think... The guy deliberately burned in the name of God, at the hands of God's servants who thought they were fighting the Devil. Anybody see a parallele with Christ? A "Savior" for science! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Maybe scientists should start saying things like "Thank Giordano!", or "May Giordano bless you", or "Go Bruno, Go! Go Bruno, Go!" Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ I am; therefore I think. [This message has been edited by Boris (edited February 05, 2000).]
Hi Tab, As my answer on one from your questions " Would be possible the world without spirituality?" I can attach the information, which one I have found in certain book today . One described there funeral habits of people of living 35000 years ago, testifying, that in those times people believed in afterlife. Simultaneously their culture and intellectual level does not give bases to statements, that dictated this was only thirst of prolongation one's own existences, as after death – They had only examples around them that death finished everything. I think that if these people believed in afterlife without proof, so we also will remain with such believes. What about religions? Religions are always created on the shape of human’s imaginations about God’s preferences, so they (religions) reflect every people’s good and bad things. (To Lori & TS – Saint Man creates only the base, the rest – organisation, faith system etc is created by people who are not “so” saint). I think that we can use to religions the same analogy as to people. One is smarter, the other in less smart and sometimes we prefer that less smart one as our companion. But generally they keeps people’s minds around God and remember to us about morality. What would happened if there are no any religion? – We can see the answer today. Religions loosing their confessors and what is the direction of mankind culture or behaviour? We have to remember that people have lazy and egoistic nature and anything what can change our relation to other people is required, even such imperfect religions. <HR> Wizard, 2 divided by 7 equals 0.285 (28.5%) 3 divided by 10 equals 0.3 (30%) so that means only 1.5% difference <HR> Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The Ravens Are Not What They Seem ------------------
I have a feeling I'm going to regret the 10 day week idea. It gives roughly the same number of workdays in a year as we have now but 3 day weekends would be a lot more useful than a 2 day weekend.
Thank you all for your opinions. Interestingly, they show that most of us here, at least share some common ground. I'll attempt to share some of my current opinions with you. D'you think humans generally need religion/spiritual belief/faith in order to gain/maintain a sense of morality and to feel spiritual love etc? I think that when the first humans began roaming the earth and started forming primitive societies, there were already relatively deep thinking individuals amongst them, who were asking the meaning of life and of all things they could perceive. The views and theories of these primitive thinkers, perhaps induced or aided by drugs, evolved into original spiritual beliefs. The people, if they were fortunate enough to be living in a safe camp or village with running water, and plenty of fresh food nearby, felt relaxed enough not to have to discuss survival tactics every night. So in the evenings, when everybody sat around the fire, the village thinker/dreamer would start telling his imaginative stories while everybody stared at him spelbound! This popularity only encouraged him to come up with more fantastic stories and theories on the mysteries of life, which he started to present as fact. And as time wore on, the developed and embellished stories formed the basis of the first religions. To the primitives, the philosophic, metaphysical ramblings of the original dreamers/priests were impressive enough to be taken as absolute and they began to show them venerable respect and favour. The warrior leaders of the tribe, were not slow to notice the impact that these original holy men had on the general public (who, in the main, were probably quite dim) so the logical thing they did, was to give these people official office with an aggenda to be kind to the chiefs and leaders and keep the morale of the people high! When the holy men took this office, they realised that they had been put in quite a responsible position. For if they had to maintain loyalty and respect for the chiefs (who were always in fear of being usurped or attacked) and also keep the peoples morale boosted, they had to create some sort of law and order which was not of this world.Complex sounding spiritual laws that worked on the psyche. I don't think that the early humans had a developed sense of morality. But I think there was probably always a kind of basic local morality that went without mention. The early priests/shamans/holymen etc must have taken the original moralistic ideas, which they developed and wove into parables or myths of example and sold back to the public, packaged in mystery and deep meaning. Once this powerful psychological and spiritual tool had been discovered, it couldn't look back. It developed, evolved where ever people settled down and at various times in various places, held very great power over them. All major religions in the world carry a moralistic code, because it is fundamental to spiritual/societal order. And nobody in the world has experienced a society without a religion and its moral code. Therefore, even though we all possess a natural, basic, moral sense. We cannot escape the fact that we have all been influenced, conciously or subconciously by the morality espoused by religions. And I think, yes, we do need religions to push to maintain moral values. Because this is the system mankind has created and perpetrated.If religions don't do it (as long as there are religions), then who will? What do you think is the actual purpose of religion? Is it for the purpose of spiritual enlightenment and awakening, or is it an attempt to gain spiritual/political, control/manipulation of the people while offering them a spiritual/psychological panacea as the premise? I think the concept, or let's say the raw content of religion was originally created and maintained by true searchers and philosophers, who discovered deep spiritual truths and the supernatural power of rhythm, dance, song, incantation, prayer, meditation etc. Over time, more thinkers/scholars/dreamers, charlatans and dubious practitioners of religion, embraced it, corrupted it and used its power for their own selfish ends. In the present time, Christianity has lost much of its power in real terms in the West. Possibly due to education, science and insatiable capitalism, amongst other things. Islam however, still carries great power in the Arab countries and is also spreading rapidly in the West. Perhaps its discipline is the main appeal. Do you agree with the universal diversity of religions, faiths and beliefs? Or do you believe in one God, one religion for all mankind? It is impossible for all men to believe or need the same thing. So I'm with diversity. Do you believe that some or all religions are absolutely truthful, good/holy and without political agendas? Or do you think that some or all religions are inherently evil, with hidden agendas? I think all religions were created by man and there was always a hidden political agenda, even if it was benign and with good intentions at first.But as religions got corrupted, their power has certainly been used to promote or instigate mass evil at various times and in various places. Whew, that was a long one, thanks for abiding if you've read it all. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Tab, Your post makes a lot of sense. However, I do disagree with one of your positions: Religion is basiclly law before there was law. I think society can enforce morality through law without claiming that this law came from God. Also, personal morality does not derive from law or religion. We are born with the necessary mechanisms, and these get tuned during early childhood as we interact with our parents and peers. Morality can roughly be equalled to reciprocity, which is so fundamental to human behavior that I am pretty sure it will survive even without any help from religion. And I think that early and consistent emphasis on personal integrity and dignity could take the place of the ever-vigilant God when it comes to enforcing morality when noone is watching. ------------------ I am; therefore I think. [This message has been edited by Boris (edited February 07, 2000).]
Tab, Something about my imagination about the early beginning of the mankind, At first some questions (and answers): What is a spiritually, in the shape, which I believe it is? - It’s something quite different than our reality perception. It’s so different, that I can compare it with 7-dimentional space. Can we imagine such space? - Of course not. Why I can use such comparison? Why I know that 7-dimentional space would exist? – Because, we recognized 4-dimentional (our one) space and we can assume let’s add another dimension to the rest and let’s see what will happen. But it’s constantly a quantity different not a quality different. Coming back to first humans. I thing that it was impossible to invite such quality different thing like spiritually even aided by drugs. Unhappily I have never been under drugs and I haven’t got such experience, but base on relations in literature I can say that drugs opening our mind into subconscious. Suddenly we can see quite crazy or amazing things that were never experienced in real world. But if you start to analyze such things you can realize that they are simply mixtures or combinations of obvious ideas, made in every possible (or impossible) way. Such extremely extraordinary perception (under drugs) is created from very ordinary reality. Now let imagine our village thinker/dreamer under drugs. What could he saw? – Some flying mammoths, his grandfather’s back into alive - but only physically, or other combination of his reality. How could he imagine something quite different? I don’t think he was able to do it. <HR> Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The Ravens Are Not What They Seem ------------------
Boris, as I discussed before and I quote: What I'm saying is that the influence of religion is so ingrained within the human psyche, that it would be impossible to separate the 'natural' built in moral sense, from the one that has been nurtured and promoted by religions world wide.It would be like trying to separate different elements from a metal, you can't do it without destroying and transforming it by fire. As the Christians say, everybody's a sinner, even Christians, even with all their morals. So can you imagine the level of 'sin' that might exist if there was no reference point or established parameters of moralistic behaviour? ... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ "The crows are already stoned", he said. With a look of dispassion on his sad face.
Ivan, many religious cultures have used and still use drugs as part of their worship or divination. Imagine an early Shaman, he takes his magic mushrooms or his peyote or any of a myriad of different hallucinogenics. He enters an altered state of conciousness. The tree he is sitting under suddenly begins to talk to him, then the surrounding plants.Then he looks to the sky and he sees the moon dancing with the stars, he begins to see some kind of connection between all animate things and his brain goes into overdrive filling in all the blanks with his limited but drug enhanced imagination. Over time, the visions and ideas are rationalised and the delusions take root. Further more, some drugs can and do work on little used (spiritual, moral, Christ) brain centres that exist and are capable of giving powerful insight and even 'supernatural' powers (levitation, communing with spirits, control of pain, chakras etc) but which may need artificial stimulation or exercise to function properly or become active. I am not insisting that the origins of all religions lie with drugs, but I think it's extremely likely. ... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Wizard, how about 3 days on, 2 days off, 2 days on 3 days off..alternating. That works out to around 50/50 over the year. But is it economically feasible? ... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ "The crows are already stoned", he said. With a look of dispassion on his sad face.
Tab, I once again respectfully disagree. In my estimation, the "influence of religion" you speak of is pretty easy to separate. Just look at a cross-section of all world religions, and tabulate moralistic commonalities. Because most religions originated without contact with each other, if you find common morals then these morals are intrinsic to human nature. You could claim that all religions might be inheritors from some mother religion, but it's doubtful that some common precepts but not others can be carried across hundreds of thousands of years by societies worldwide. Besides, you would still have to account for the origin of the first religion(s) and moral values. Additionally, we can observe behavior in apes which is often what we would call moral. However, it is obvious that apes don't have religions. Therefore, any moral behavior they exhibit is intrinsic. A similar observation can be made of young children. You will observe a certain degree of cooperation and reciprocity in their behavior, which could not be accounted for through religion. As I said, there is indeed a reference point, and it is naturally built-in. Additionally, "established parameters" can be 'established' through law, with no need to reference anything mythical, mystical or supernatural. ------------------ I am; therefore I think.
