Antifa, BLM and SJWs vs White Nationalist, Battle of Charlottesville

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ElectricFetus, Aug 12, 2017.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    No, they were not. They were not coexisting just fine. Not even close. Not even as an alternative fact. Their flipping out under the stress of W failure and the Black President's face on TV is kind of famous - you didn't notice?

    "They" won the Presidency in 1968, 1972, 1980, 1984, (1988), 2000, 2004, and 2016.

    You keep talking like the Republican Party we have now was invented in 2016. It was invented in 1968. Reagan was the first Trump (Nixon tapped the Trump vote, but was competent). It took Congress under Reagan, and consolidated its hold in 1994. That was all by way of who has become - after twenty five more years of intense media effort - the Trump voter.
     
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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    #onenation | #LibertyAndJusticeForAll

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    Click because Justice can still hear us calling.

    So, you spent months railing against the "identity politics" of asserting and defending the human rights of women and transgender and queers, and what you come up with is that you haven't actually managed to surrender anything yet? Good one. Now stop advocating surrender.

    No, it's a Monty Python↱ bit, and the actual line is that there is no Rule Six, but if you hold out for that, it just takes forever; some years ago I used Rule 3 for the line in a beerstreamed compression, and thus it became in one corner of my Universe. But there is no Rule Six, and the rest is hilariously self-defeating.

    And what many human beings do in such times is turn on one another in search of empowerment. Still, though, consider Roy Moore, because the disgraced former Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court is an object lesson:

    • Moore defies law and Constitution to such an extent that Alabama Court of the Judiciary requires his ouster according to law.

    • People re-elect Moore to Chief Justice of Alabama Supreme Court.

    • It's actually difficult to explain, but Luther Strange isn't conservative enough because all he did was take it to the Supreme Court, see Justice Thomas disgrace himself, and still lose. Presently, Mr. Noore leads the polling for nomination as the Republican candidate in a special election to replace former U.S. Senator Jeff Sessions.

    • Defending President Trump, Moore described the United States as evil. While this is casual talk among many, and common in any self-identifying revolutionary chatter, it is extraordinary in the context of a state chief Justice, or United States senator. Yet why does Moore think the U.S. is evil?

    In an interview with the Guardian’s Anywhere But Washington series, Moore also said that Ronald Reagan’s famous declaration about the Soviet Union being “the focus of evil in the modern world” might today be applied to the US.

    “You could say that about America, couldn’t you?” he said. “We promote a lot of bad things.” Asked for an example, he replied: “Same-sex marriage.”

    When it was pointed out to Moore that his arguments on gay rights and morality were the same as those of the Russian leader, he replied: “Well, maybe Putin is right.” He added: “Maybe he’s more akin to me than I know.”


    (Lewis and Sambamurthy↱)

    And as Mr. Moore's life and status remind, the delivery of economic security to a well-educated American does not in and of itself end supremacism.

    Among judges who aren't formally disgraced, for instance, we might consider United States Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, whose dissent in Strange v. Searcy seemed to acknowledge the coming Obergefell decision as inevitable, and thus becomes an advocacy for stay against an intrafamily adoption on the grounds that it's going to be over, anyway, in a little while so why not just let Luther Strange and Alabama treat people they disdain like shit for just a just a few more months—y'know?—because it is indecorous and insulting to say they can't hurt people for the sake of arbitrary personal aesthetics.. Indeed, the dissent was so incensed that it utterly failed ot recognize the obvious exposure through Heyburn's ruling in Bourke, which explicitly ducked Article IV and thus left an actual pathway for Thomas, at least, to complain.

    Even more spectacular, though, were the Obergefell dissents of the late Justice Antonin Scalia and Chief Justice John Roberts, and therein you'll find reflections of a voting-age period 'twixt the first injunctions against Colorado Amendment 2 and the U.S. Supreme Court's final ruling against the anti-gay state constitutional amendment, to the one, the growing hardline transformation of the GOP in elections since 2010.

    We need not doubt the point on economy, but you would find value in attending how the larger human process works. If you've never heard the line about how religion causes wars, well, it's prominent enough to draw book-length response, but for our purposes it suffices to remind that religion is just the dressing, while the wars are driven by economics. And it's gone that way pretty much from the beginning: The barbaros have something the civilized need—and increasingly as economy provided such opportunity for luxury, wanted—so the civilized presume the right to take from the barbaros, just like modern Americans presume to kill wild animals because we "need" to build houses where they live, or, you know, just because we want to, for "sport". The bit with religion is the result of how easily manipulated an identity politic it is.

    Historically, identity politics are a significant part of how so many of these economically wounded blocs arrived at difficult times. Interestingly, when blocs overlapping your specific concerns—white, cishet, male, and also inherently Christian—so safely presumed tacit supremacy as to find themselves unable to recognize themselves as such, because everybody was equal as long as the Coloreds and the women and the Mohammadens and Catholics and Injuns and just go on down the list, all stayed in happy subordinate roles and status, the identity focus was this reeally weird neurotic mix of Christianity and greed; it has pushed on into the twenty-first century, and one of the interesting questions we might eventually forget to observe the answer to is whether it is dormant, rejected, or somehow explicitly blamed on Democrats and liberals.

    But just as it always seemed strange that Christians would be so devotedly allied with American postcapitalism, so also was it strange to watch working-class whites in the Rust Belt and elsewhere vote for union-busting Republicans, but it was an identity vote against a strawman caricature of communism. Despite the fourth chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, the motto on our coin, "In God We Trust", is an assertion of Christianity and capitalism against communism. Horatio Alger, Tea & Crumpets; we've been through all this before↗. However, since you can't seem to follow the discussion, we now need to explicitly note—

    —the futility of your distractions: Remember, we were talking about a different aspect—

    EF: Now Tiassa, what is your solution?

    T: We have all manner of tools, including the ballot box, the picket line, and even the courts.

    EF: 3. By all means find a crime to take them to court for.

    T: Windsor? Obergefell? Racist redistricting in Texas? North Carolina? Bills of attainder and other legislative failures aimed at Planned Parenthood? Seriously, for all you complain about how pissed off they are, are you really so lost in your strawfield that you can't remember the real reasons?

    EF: what is the real reason? real reason for what? The rise in their hate? Two decades of economic stagnation for the middle and lower classes, that is the REAL reason, if you want to get technical it is trump, and how people like you would rather have us lose to Trump than change strategies.

    —that you ignore whenever you encounter it. You cannot stratify economic justice, and your craven need for liberalism and leftism to just shut the fuck up and let these people harm as many as they can is as uneducated and, let's face it, stupid as it gets. Honestly, if you cannot figure out that you cannot achieve justice of any sort except injustice by giving iniquity and inequality the run of the place, are you even capable of explaining why? Seriously, whence comes this incompetence? How damn stupid do we have to be in order to pretend that sympathy with supremacism is somehow a necessary component of justice?

    Regardless of what Democrats do toward economic justice, conservatives are still bringing the supremacist identity politics, and it's one thing to say that the triumph of evil requires only that good people do nothing, but to contrive and calculate that inaction is itself an act of will.

    No, Justice will not surrender for the sake of injustice, so stop asking.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Monty Python. "Bruces Sketch". 1970. MontyPython.net. 14 August 2017. http://bit.ly/2vDesDI

    Lewis, Paul and Adithya Sambamurthy. "'Maybe Putin is right': Republican Senate frontrunner on Russian leader". The Guardian. 10 August 2017. TheGuardian.com. 14 August 2017. http://bit.ly/2fzDPSW
     
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  7. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    What am I surrendering? What rights am I asking be taken away for women and queers and transgenders?

    Ok... so what is your point?


    Well it a good thing that not my argument!
    There will always be racists, but with economic security and education they will be in a minority and egalitarian progress will move forward. Without economic security and education on the other hand their will be nothing but racism, or it original foundation: tribalism, oh and their will be much blood and soil, mostly blood. There is no curing human nature, reason and stability provide a means to fight it, to suppress it, not cure it.

    Having a political party based around economic security and education, and actually achieving that, will insure the racists stay out of political power, will insure progressiveness as people have the means and time to care about others. Having a political party based around racial justice on the other hand will lose everything and worse fuel a counter movement, as you have, that will strip away everything you hold dear and regress society. You really don't have a choice on this, it is either we lose with your strategy, as we already have, or we try mine. If you and your ilk win and keep "staying the course", you have no one to blame but yourselves for what the republicans and conservatives and alt-right do.

    In short you keep eluding to me wanting to strip human rights, yet your actions ultimately result in doing just that.

    If you don't make economic justice foremost, we lose, we end up with no goverment power and hand it to those that want neither economic justice, or racial justice, or sexual justice, etc.

    How am I "letting these people harm as many as they can"?

    These people are not demons, they are people, worse they vote. They have interests that are in line with ours: they want good jobs, they want a future. Sure they are ignorant racists, but you can't ignore them or else you end up with Trump as president. We can agree with them on the issue of economic justice and get some of their votes under an economic justice platform with economic justice canidates, and by the way such a platform would help the minorities disproportionality, so what is the problem?

    Again and again with this strawman.
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    You can't make economic justice foremost without dealing with the racial and sexual stuff that establishes and maintains economic injustice.

    You can't get economic justice for white men only. That's not economic justice.
    We ended up with Trump by cooperating with them and abetting them and cutting them all kinds of slack. We let them lie and slander and intimidate and act out their fantasies and rewrite their record, we coddled their self-image and praised their occasional virtues and appeased them in their idiocies. We even allowed them to blame us, to make nonsense claims of "both sides" and "the American people" and so forth to describe our appeasements and scratch cover over their shitpiles.

    They've been working to trash their own future for fifty years, and trash ours with it, and we kept adjusting and negotiating and compromising and - Clinton's specialty - "triangulating" with them.

    It didn't work.
     
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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  10. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    It's not just a statue, it's a symbol of the Jim Crow era, and therefore the alt-right.
     
  11. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah but as liberals that believe in law and order we petition the goverment to remove it, as we did, and the goverment removes it, we don't riot in the streets and tear it down while jumping up and down spitting on it like howling monkeys. Let the alt-right howl like monkeys, let them make fools of themselves, we need to behave superior.

    When the alt-right comes out to rally about a statue being removed, we should not antagonize them, that is what they want, attention, we had already won. Antagonizing them makes us look like childish fools, thankfully they proved to be more violent and made even greater fools of themselves, but not by much.
     
  12. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    Vandalism is worthy of no praise.
    Are we then to cheer on the Taliban?
     
  13. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    What is "pathetic" now praise? The Tailban kill people by the way.
     
  14. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    narrow the focus to vandalism only

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  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Right. I guess that's why Clinton won.
     
  16. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    But that is not what we did, we on the left created an identity politics movement that shames and blames people for being born white, we fueled a racist counter movement of white nationalist who now have enough political capital to have elected the most idiotic, worse president ever.

    https://vid.me/MMqfk

    You mean like this?

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    Yes the Muslims are bad, yes antifa is bad, but I'm talking about another problem,which is white nationalism. The problem of white nationalism does not cease to exist just because antifa and Muslims exist. I have proposed as solution to that problem: ignore and push economic justice instead of racial justice.

    Now does anyone else have a better solution?
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  17. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    I've never once felt shamed for being white.
     
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  18. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Well good for you, but a buntch of poor uneducated whites with nothing to look forward to but bills they can't pay, have nothing else. Worse the regressive left have told these people that they don't have problems and are the cause ever everything wrong in the world simply because of the color of their skin.
     
  19. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    Neither have I felt blamed for everything wrong with the world.
     
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  20. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    So your a poor uneducated white person? I mean what kind of counter argument are you making, are you a whole demographic? Is the concept of averages and percentages beyond you too?
     
  21. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    You didn't make an argument because you left too many variables affecting individual personality unknown.
     
  22. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    <-----------not a member of the 1%
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Great idea! I guess that's why Clinton won.
     

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