Antivax: Behind the Stupid (and Other Notes)

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Sep 27, 2016.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Sorry, I gave you a chance. Now that you don't like the implications, you don't get to change your answer. I'm personally holding you to your posts. No, seriously, at some point, we get to at least pretend you're trying to be sincere, and that means treating what you say as what you say.

    Stop changing the subject. Stop trying to deceive people. Stop obfuscating. Stop trolling.
     
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  3. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Move on flamer. I have no interest in your lies or your hateful opinions about me as a person..
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2016
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  5. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I am not sure if you accept my point or not but I need say no more.
    Alex
     
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    As I mentioned before, your ignorance as to how diseases are communicated explains much of your anti-vaccination attitudes.

    People like you are the reason that we have to mandate things like vaccinations, rather than let people make informed decisions. So congratulations; you are a great example.

    (In your reply, make sure you LOL; otherwise you might have to think about the issue.)
     
  8. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Yep...here come the insults and flames again. You really don't have any points left to make do you? Just whine and demonize to make yourself feel good. You and Tiassa should go out and burn me in effigy tonight. Might make you feel better..
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2016
  9. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Tell me, are you up on all YOUR vaccines? Or are you murdering babies like I am? lol!
     
  10. Daecon Kiwi fruit Valued Senior Member

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    I see your "LOL!" and raise you a "WTF?"
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    ¿What's Your Ruckus?

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    Well, see, like I said↑:

    Your rhetoric would seem to require this erroneous equivalence, except that would be extraordinarily stupid since it simply presupposes against arguments on the record that you haven't actually addressed.

    Since you decided to skip out on the issue↑ you might not have noticed the part I bolded above.

    Because as I noted of booster shots↑:

    Actually, I expect that public service campaign is coming eventually. Most Americans, however, recall a time when health insurance could be hard to get. It will take a while to dig out of that hole.

    And you skipped out on that one↑, too.

    I even discussed it in more detail, but that was a general post↑; perhaps because it wasn't specifically directed to you it didn't seem worth paying any attention to.

    But you did keep hammering on the subject of unvaccinated adults, pretending you are incapable of distinguishing between results of circumstance and deliberate decisions. I did inquire↑ about your citation posted with no explanation↑, which could have covered some of these issues, but you skipped out↑ on that one, twice↑.

    And then you tried the fallacious equivocation↑, and, you know, complain all you want↑, but do recognize there's a reason why nobody believes you, Magical Realist.

    Yeah, I know how to use words to hit you really, really hard. And I know there are some people here at Sciforums who threw down for you, who showed you great empathy, and I can say that because, quite frankly, your user ID remains functional. And, quite frankly, you're disappointing pretty much everyone who stood up for you. And the thing is that all you need to do is come up for air every once in a while. We're all expected to recognize that there is the character we see here at Sciforums, and the person behind it. There does come a point, however, when some players seem to insist that these normally disparate facets are one and the same. They push insistently, denigrate themselves farcically, wallowing in Poe's Law and flatly refusing any outreach to establish normative contact and context. And after a while, everyone shrugs and says, "Okay, so that's who this person wants to be." And then their response to the person becomes the same as their response to the character. When those characters cry that they're being treated unjustly, not only do people have little sympathy with the assertion of injustice, they also have little trust that the character truly feels that way.

    It's not so much a matter of asking if you know how insulting you are when you change the subject and show such disrespect to important questions like willfully endangering your children. Seriously, dude, some of us are parents, you know, and we actually give a fuck about our kids, you know? Of course you don't? Or maybe you just don't care? Because that's the thing. It isn't whether or not you know how terrible you're being, it's more a matter of whether you care or not. And, you know, there's always the possibility that you do in fact care, but just enjoy being so terrible.

    So, yeah, you're pretty damn offensive. From the outset, all you've done is change the subject. You're even trolling herd immunity↑ while advocating the one thing any educated participant in this discussion knows can undo it.

    There's a fascinating↑ question↑ about social dynamics among antivaxxers sincere discussion could pursue, but you're just so determined to change the subject. Why is that, MR?

    You're just trying to run the discussion around in circles.

    Your lack of sincerity is as not appreciated as it is obvious, so cry all you want, but nobody has any reason to take you seriously about that, either.

    Meanwhile, so ... okay, you're incapable of distinguishing between results of circumstance and deliberate decisions. Great. What next?
     
  12. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I don't know can you get one to prevent old age?

    Alex
     
  13. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    No..that's a terminal condition.
     
  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Thank goodness I don't have it.
    Alex
     
  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    You do, however, remind of a very relevant point: Human life is a 100% fatal sexually transmitted disease.

    Find a vaccine for that, and all our troubles disappear.
     
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  16. Bells Staff Member

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    Mod Note

    For your information, whooping cough starts out looking like the common cold. It is contagious from the moment the first signs appear. Symptoms include a runny nose, low grade fever, a dry cough sometimes. To wit, it starts off looking like a mild cold. The dry hacking cough, gasping, gagging, vomiting after coughing fits does not appear for a few weeks, by which point, parents or adults believe it was just a mild cold, carry on their day to day lives, send kids to school with it believing it is just a mild cold. Hence the absolute danger of the disease, because it is contagious when it simply looks like a mild cold. Some just have a bit of a runny nose and no other symptoms, so parents send them to school non the wiser that their child is a biological time bomb, and a danger to those around them, which is made worse if they come into contact with children and adults with compromised immune systems or babies who are not yet vaccinated.

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    [Source]

    Stage 1 is where the biggest danger to others lie, because parents with kids who look like they have a mild cold, will often send their kids to school or daycare, go to amusement parks, cinemas, shopping malls, thereby spreading the disease, because the disease is highly contagious in those early stages. Even after taking anti-biotics, they are still contagious for a week or even more and more often then not, they will not start the anti-biotics until the child is in the second stage, where it becomes obvious that the child has the disease.

    So no, claiming that it is most contagious up to and about 2 weeks after the cough begins is not only wrong, but also dangerous to believe that. Kids often just have a runny nose at the start and they are contagious then. So please stop spreading disinformation in your anti-vaxxer excuse zeal.

    Measles is another one, and if anything, measles is possibly more dangerous because a) the person is contagious before the obvious symptoms appear and b) the disease can hang around where the infected person has been for hours and is airborne. The importance of the MMR vaccine and why parents who object to vaccines based on a lie and conspiracy theory has resulted in a disease that had virtually been close to eradication in the West, making a comeback, resulting in many children and babies now contracting the disease and yes, resulting in permanent damage and death for some of them.

    The use of measles vaccine in infant immunisation programs globally has led to a significant reduction in measles cases and deaths. In addition to providing direct protection to the vaccine recipient, immunisation against measles results in the indirect protection of unimmunised people (herd immunity) if high enough coverage is achieved. Measles vaccine has several major effects on measles epidemiology, including an increase of the mean age of infection and an increase in the time between epidemics.

    Despite the availability of an effective measles vaccine for almost 40 years, the disease still causes a considerable burden in many countries. In 2008, there were 164,000 measles deaths globally. Higher measles vaccination coverage (at 85 per cent in 2010) led to a 78 per cent drop in measles deaths globally between 2000 and 2008. Reductions in measles mortality accounted for 23 per cent of the estimated global decline in all-cause child mortality from 1990 to 2008. Most deaths occur in developing countries, principally in Africa and Asia. Forty-three countries reported routine measles vaccine coverage below 80 per cent in 2010. Large measles outbreaks continue to occur, especially in areas of developing countries with low vaccine coverage and among children living in countries where there are unstable social conditions. These outbreaks frequently have high case-fatality rates.

    To put it into some perspective, Measles had been eliminated in the US. This means that it was no longer naturally occurring within the population of the United States. This is now no longer the case, because of anti-vaxxers. The reason being is that with more and more people deliberately electing to not vaccinate, when they come into contact with a migrant or someone from overseas that has the disease, it then spreads like wildfire in the unvaccinated community. Lack of vaccination in a community means that herd immunity has gone out the window, leaving everyone at risk.

    This year in Arizona, for example, a measles outbreak hit. The reason is simple and so downright stupid that it beggars belief. US staff working in a migrant processing center refused to be vaccinated. They then came into contact with someone who had the measles. And the outbreak began. It is one of the biggest outbreaks of measles in 2016 if not in recent years. 22 people, a lot of them US staff who refused vaccination, came down with the disease. In one small town in one State. Every person who came down with it were not vaccinated. This puts others in the community who cannot be vaccinated because of age (children under 12 months, for example, people with compromised immunity systems) is now at risk because some staff working in a place where they came into direct contact with people from overseas who are more than likely not vaccinated due to poverty, refused to be vaccinated in the course of their employ.

    Measles had been eliminated in the US. How the US achieved that was through a high level of vaccination in the community, ensuring herd immunity. Now it is considered endemic in the US and naturally occurring and spreading in the population because people are not vaccinated.

    Parents who refuse to vaccinate their children or themselves because of a ridiculous and false conspiracy theory pose a risk and danger to everyone around them, and the result is sadly sometimes death for those unfortunate enough to come into contact with them. Herd immunity works. It worked for decades before stupidity led to people falling for a false conspiracy theory and now, measles is no longer considered eliminated in the US. It is now endemic.

    To wit, there is no rhyme or reason to defend this as you have been.

    I would encourage and caution you, MR, to be careful about your unscientific arguments and defense of anti-vaxxers. It is known and proven that anti-vaxxers pose a risk to their communities. Trolling and flaming people who discuss these dangers will not be tolerated on this site.
     
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  17. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    It's a turn off, aka ignore, to post so many words.

    You're not the only guilty party, but I'm still not listening.

    [EDIT]

    I was also in the mood to make a disgruntled post.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  18. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    Comedy isn't stupid, but stupidity is comical. Its most like love and hate.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  19. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Most people stay home when they get a cough and fever. The achiness. The malaise that precedes the illness. And as for measles, it's contagious 4 days before the rash appears, which is also the time symptoms such as fever and achiness and runny nose occur.

    What are the symptoms?
    "Symptoms appear about 10 to 12 days after a person is exposed to measles. The first symptoms are usually:

    • Fever
    • Cough
    • Runny nose
    • Red watery eyes
    • Rash
      • Small red spots, some of which are slightly raised
      • Spots and bumps in tight clusters give the skin a splotchy red appearance.
      • Usually appears 2 to 4 days after the fever begins and lasts 5 to 6 days.
      • Begins at the hairline, moves to the face and neck, down the body and then to the arms and legs...
    How long is a person with measles contagious?
    A person with measles can pass it to others from 4 days before a rash appears through the 4th day after the rash appears."----------http://www.health.ny.gov/publications/2170/

    So again, symptoms occur WHEN the disease is starting to get contagious. Your need to demonize people who get sick or whose kids get sick is noted. My point has already been well established. You can't continue to demonize 9% of the population when 40-80% of the population are not up on their vaccinations. I know it's frustrating to not have a scapegoat to whale on. But you'll just have to deal with it. Get vaccinated. Get your kids vaccinated. And stop worrying about it. There are bigger issues to get all hyper about. Child abuse. Abuse of women. Driver texters. ISIS. Devote your energy to the real scumbags. Because there's plenty of them out there.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Just remember the nature and posture of your disgruntlement, though, because some will, indeed, seek to gruntle accordingly by counting you as antivax.
     
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Note to a Deathmonger

    You continue to conflate circumstantial outcomes with wilful behavior. You have been addressed on this point several times, and the best you have shown yourself capable of is petulantly lying in a craven attempt to keep your troling afoot.

    You need to stop with this deliberate fallacious equivocation.

    You need to stop lying.

    You need to stop going out of your way to perpetually treat other people like shit. Your wilful cruelty unto your fellow human being, and unto children in particular, is not the sort of thing people can unsee, you know.

    You go out of your way to show cruelty toward children for heaven's sake. What the hell is wrong with you? Trying to peer pressure parents into getting their kids killed? Trying to troll and shame people into hurting and killing children?

    Really? Your eternally hurt feelings are worth that?

    What the hell is wrong with you? Advocacy of child endangerment is really, really messed up, Magical Realist. You probably shouldn't be partaking in such terrible behavior.

    Sadly, as much as I would like to pretend it's some sort of accident, and you didn't know what you were doing, you've been at it long enough to convince me that harm unto children really is your purpose.

    And you need to stop that right now.
     
  22. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Reported for vicious flaming and lying insults and ad hominems and continued hysterical ranting about what a horrible person I am and how I'm endangering people's lives..

    • Abide by basic standards of good manners and courtesy. Remember the human who is reading your post.
    • Do not insult or harass other members.
    • Avoid engaging with members with whom you have a personality clash.
    • Beware of the potential for discussions to become heated - particularly religious and political discussions.
    • Do not flame other members.
    • Do not engage in ad hominem attacks (i.e. attack the argument, not the person).
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
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  23. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    You have yet to substantiate that antivaxxers are "wilfully" getting people sick. They are not. Nobody wants anyone to get sick. They are simply weighing the risk of jeopardizing their kids' health with vaccines against the risk of them getting sick. We risk assess all the time. We go out and drive to work on icy streets. We go to malls on 911. We let our sons play violent sports like football. This is not a moral failing. It is human nature, and everyone has the right to do it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016

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