Arabia's Flying Mujaheddin

Discussion in 'World Events' started by hypewaders, Nov 17, 2003.

  1. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    I just picked up Dude, Where's My Country? and was interested to see stuff along these lines in Chapter 1. Moore goes a little wide of the mark IMO in suspecting factions of the Royal Family. Like any other Royals, they're pretty tight, and it's the rest of the central Arabians, and most of all the fundamentalists, who might benefit most from a regional meltdown precipitated by intensified US intervention.

    Anyway, questions 3 and 4 to the US President raise some very interesting points nobody in the Administration seems willing to touch, even if we had a major media with the cojones to confront them with it in the limelight. These questions need to be raised in a press conference, since the President doesn't read newspapers, and his advisors probably spend little time on left-wing political humor. Here's what Michael Moore challenges the Bush Administration to explain on this subject:

    "George, apparently you were a pilot once- how hard is it to hit a 5-story building at more than 500 mph? The Pentagon is only 5 stories high. At 500 mph, had the pilots been off by just a hair, they'd have been in the river. You do not get this skilled at learning how to fly jumbo jets by being taught on a video game machine at some dipshit flight training school in Arizona. You learn to do this in the air force. Someone's air force. The Saudi Air Force? "

    "Mr. Bush, why have the Saudis received red-carpet treatment?... why have you blocked attempts to dig deeper into the Saudi connections? ... Why are you so busy protecting the Saudis when you should be protecting us? ... Why did you allow a private Saudi jet to fly around the U.S. in the days after 9-11 and pick up members of the Bin Laden family and then fly them out of the country without proper investigaion by the FBI?" ... etc.
     
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  3. Vortexx Skull & Bones Spokesman Registered Senior Member

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    In some circles it is believed that the Saoudi government in many cases "bought off" the internal tribal threats with many dollars and services and hiding al-quaida operatives, as long as they would promise to focus on the export of fundamentalism and not mess with the throne.

    Probably Osama Bin Laden and what he represents made them believe he could be controlled / be dealt with by means of money etc. just like the americans misstakenly thought he was a usefull tool in Afghanistan against the russians.

    However, as we can see in the Arabia peninsula, al-quaida and the kingdom are engaged in a full scale battle , control over the islamic world is the stakes.

    This is one doggy that has bitten the hands of those who feed him and the governments try hard not to look embarressed with their bloody hands...
     
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  5. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Al-Qaeda is a fundamentally

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    revolutionary organization dedicated to the destruction of the Saudi monarchy and family elite. Although sympathizers may run deep, it makes no sense for whatsoever for there to be cooperation between Al-Qaeda and their official and primary mortal enemy.

    At the same time, there may be a strong "we'll handle this" policy on the part of Saudis, and a "people won't understand this" attitude on the part of the US govt.
     
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  7. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    It's a sparkling clear morning in New York, just like it was 4 years ago. On this sad anniversary, I've been reviewing the rarely-examined evidence that the 9-11 pilots were not the everyday civilian-trained Arab flyboys that we have been told they were. From the moment I watched the South Tower hit live, I have viscerally known, as a relatively experienced pilot, that (in addition to being a murderous act) the 9-11 attacks were an undeniable display of consistently and uncommonly superb flying. These were not just some guys dispatched by al-Qaeda to learn the necessary skills from mundane American civilian flight schools. I am convinced that the stories of shady Saudis performing dismally in flight schools are reasonably corroborated. I can accept that some of them may likely have been aboard the doomed flights. But that those mediocre-at-best pilots were at the controls to impact, I cannot logically accept. I know the sky is blue, and I know these were no ordinary pilots.

    The promoted and popularly-accepted scenario is entirely implausible: The 9-11 hijacker-pilots consistently exhibited skills that can only be mastered hands-on in tactical jet training programs (such as the US Air Force has provided for many years to the Royal Saudi Air Force, both in S-A and through training arrangements on US home airbases). The notion and evidence that these were military attack jet pilots become more compelling with time, even as their real identities and names recede into shadow and public indifference.

    This issue has highly significant implications to the "War on Terror" cum "Struggle Against Extremism", because the disparity suggests that the US government has systematically avoided revealing crucial background on the 9-11 attackers which would normally be easily available from their training records. Instead, a ridiculous story has been concocted depicting below-average pilots of very low experience pulling off one of the most technically challenging aerial attacks in history. Remember, of the planes that reached target, they scored 3 for 3.

    But this issue of the 9-11 pilots' backgrounds has profound political implications. This US government has exhibited highly suspicious priorities in obscuring the trail of these perpetrators with nonsensical explanations. Meanwhile, over the past 4 years, thousands of lives and billions of Dollars have been expended in dubiously justified foreign intervention and failed nation-building; vast new bureaucracies have been born; defense-sector corporations have been bloated with tax Dollars- all in the name of responding to 9-11. Yet through all of the grand rhetoric and bellicosity, the obviously importand trail into these pilots' biographies has been deliberately abandoned.

    Why? To save face. To stay "on message". To control public opinion. The reality behind the life stories of these highly-skilled and murderous pilots defies the stereotypes, assumptions, and oversimplifications being dishonestly and even criminally disseminated by the U.S. government. Those presently in power obviously do not want the public examining this issue, because it cuts right through the manipulated distortion of history and reality that they have been slapping together. Protecting the flawed manufactured version of events is a higher priority to these people than is the national defense. Some will cynically shrug this off as the innate venality of politics, as the inescapable tendency of people in power to cover their asses above all else. But in light of all the blood and treasure still pouring out ostensibly in the wake of 9-11, this obstruction of justice must not stand if we are to come through this horror into a more secure, reality-based, and honor-based future.

    Some more links:

    What Really Happened: "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane," says O'Brien. "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."

    Newsweek:"U.S. military sources have given the FBI information that suggests five of the alleged hijackers of the planes that were used in Tuesday’s terror attacks received training at secure U.S. military installations in the 1990s."



    Washington Post:"Controllers had time to warn the White House that the jet was aimed directly at the president's mansion and was traveling at a gut-wrenching speed -- full throttle. But just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot executed a pivot so tight that it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver. The plane circled 270 degrees to the right to approach the Pentagon from the west, whereupon Flight 77 fell below radar level, vanishing from controllers' screens, the sources said.
     
  8. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Well, ye're logic fails you this time, Hype. Once a plane is off the ground and in full flight mode, a child could "fly" the plane! It ain't no big deal, Hype, to turn the plane or to "point it" at a target. Think about it ...once the car is on the road and moving, a child can "drive" the car, can't he? Of course.

    By the way, the sky isn't always blue ....it can be various shades of gray, too. Your logic and your knowledge should be examined more closely.

    Baron Max
     
  9. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Baron Max: I teach people to fly airplanes for a living. I have had some exposure to tactical flying as well. I know quite a lot about how pilots from novice to advanced fare at accurately flying and maneuvering aircraft at speed.

    I occasionally initiate pilots into the art of slicing up toilet paper with a light airplane. It has never occured for any pilot I have instructed in this maneuvering- whatever their level of experience, to be able to line up and strike a target with the aircraft at relatively high speed with any initial success. These "attack runs" require much drill and analysis to become predictable and reliably accurate. After much practise, accuracy does improve dramatically. Without such training, there simply is no accuracy. These skills are not taught in the flight school curricula that we are told the 9-11 hijackers received their training in.

    In a former job selling military trainers, I flew ground attack runs with experienced fighter pilots. Although I had aerobatic and formation experience, and was considered a talented pilot, I initially had no ability whatsoever to accurately stabilize the airplane on an attack vector without gaining specific additional training. Without the training, I had horrible accuracy with ballistic delivery. Beginner's luck just doesn't work there. Now I have an edge in bomb-dropping whenever some friendly competition dropping flour-sacks or pumpkins on target is organized among my flying buddies. They would like to know my secrets, but I'm not telling

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    .

    The 9-11 attackers flew those airliners in configurations, altitudes, and speeds that airline pilots never experience throughout their careers (unless they also flew in the military). We are talking about aggressively and assertively-flown, full-power attack runs at more than 500 mph at extremely low altitudes, in hulking, elastic airliners that do not behave well at high speed and low altitude. Successful 3 for 3 in their attack runs. Those finessing the controls were not just pilots, and not just fanatics. They were experts.
     
  10. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Well, Hype, it seems that there's a difference of opinions. I've talked to three airline pilots and one former US Navy combat pilot and they all agree that with only a little bit of training, the terrorists could have hit the buildings ....as they obviously did.

    Just a little side note: One of the airline pilots said that the second plane to hit the towers seemed to be on instrument flight/auto pilot, and at the last minute saw that he was going to miss the tower, so he banked it viciously in order to hit it.

    As to target flying, I think ye're talking about high-altitude targeting. And it can be difficult to even see targets at high altitude. But those planes were flying low, so the Towers were probably sillouetted agains the sky ....easy targets.

    Baron Max
     
  11. Odin'Izm Procrastinator Registered Senior Member

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    Bush probably made 9/11 happen to give himself a cause to go to war. I use homer's Illyad as an example, Agamemnon the king of greece killed his own daughter to give his troops strong winds so they could sail to troy. People are sick and things like this happen.
     
  12. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    So he erased everyone's memories, paid off all the airline employees, paid of the airline pilots so they'd kill themselves, paid off all of the newspaper reporters and investigative journalists, paid off all of the thousands of other who would have had to know and/or worked with him to make it happen?

    Oooooooh, scary, huh? ...LOL!

    Baron Max
     
  13. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Clearly 9-11 was a surprise to the Bush Administration. The motivations of Qaeda were well publicized from the source, that is before the organization metastasized into a diverse underground after their incomplete rout from Afghanistan. In the still-muddled aftermath of 9-11, we have been lead far off the trail of the perpetrators. What antagonized radical Arabians into such horrific attacks is a clear matter of modern Mideast history. What obscured public investigation into exactly who attacked the USA is still to be sorted out. The Bush Administration has from the outset manipulated the shock, fear, and anger that 9-11 triggered for other ambitions, specifically the invasion of Iraq, and consistent evidence of this deliberate public deception continues to emerge.

    The flaws in the distorted official version of events, such as I have approached here, will eventually lead to the unravelling of both stories: Who specifically attacked us, and what our government did (antidemocratically and duplicitously) in response. This is of course not the first time that crisis has been used to force a new foreign policy agenda. But today, far more information becomes available with time. Those of us who care about the future must not be distracted. We must pay close attention, and must hold our leaders accountable for our own sakes, and for the sake of our country.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2005
  14. Koyaanisqatsi Banned Banned

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    I love how hypewaders exposes himself.

    On the one hand, it comes as a surprise to him that the towelheads might actually be able to fly a plane. We're all equal, all human, says he - and yet he is surprised that they can fly.
    Racism has some very odd faces.

    I'm also constantly amazed that such as he can hold anyone accountable other than those who actually did the deed. Hypewaders would probably rather see Jeffrey Dahmer's parents in prison rather than Jeffrey himself - because obviously, he was not responsible for his own actions and was simply a victim of circumstance.
     
  15. Odin'Izm Procrastinator Registered Senior Member

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    He wouldnt have to pay anyone off, he made an agreement with the saudis, that they would send 13 people on airplanes in the US on a certain date, they trained the 13 extremists, got them on the flights and turned a blind eye while it unfolded. The only pay necessary was to auction off shares of iraq and afghanistan to Saudi officials and to US officials who were in on it.

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    Last edited: Sep 11, 2005
  16. Koyaanisqatsi Banned Banned

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    Odin - you're very amusing. Keep posting - please.
     
  17. Odin'Izm Procrastinator Registered Senior Member

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    On another note, There was a report on BBC a long time ago with an interview of a woman who's car was scraped by the landing gear of the 757 that hit the pentagon. It featured a picture of her gas guzeling american minivan (owned mostly by "soccer moms" aka women whos husbands are fullfilling the american dream and cheating on them) the roof of which was torn off, and the rear doors folded over. The question however, which I know is on everyone's mind; is; Did bush pay her to testify because he secretly launched a cruise missile into the pentagon and needed to cover it up?

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    , :bugeye:
     
  18. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Koyaanisqatsi: I have not wished to leave any impression of racism, that Arabs are less capable of anything in comparison to another ethnicity. I have been instead questioning the version of events we have been given by the US government- that the hijack pilots took their training in civilian flight schools. I am not surprised that Arabs can fly well. I have known highly accomplished Arab aviators, military and civilian. I am offering that those who flew the airliners into their targets displayed higher skills than could have been achieved through the popularly-accepted story.

    "I'm also constantly amazed that such as he can hold anyone accountable other than those who actually did the deed."

    I demand accountability for the truth. We have been given an official explanation of the 9-11 attacksthat doesn't stand up to reason. Our leaders, and the investigators that they appoint owe us the whole truth.
     
  19. Odin'Izm Procrastinator Registered Senior Member

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    I just gave you the truth! I even PROVED it with 3000 year old greek mythology, if it has existed for 3000 years it has to be true!
     
  20. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    But, Hype, you've just demonstrated to the world that you don't believe "amatuers" could fly the planes. So ....what the fuck WOULD you believe? I.e., it seems to me that no matter what any investigative team came up with, you'd have problems believing UNLESS it was EXACTLY what you NOW believe. So .......what's the "truth"?

    By the way, while you're at it .....what's the "truth" of the Kennedy assassination in Dallas?? ;=)

    Baron Max
     
  21. dkb218 Banned Banned

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    27 While the public is told that the "black boxes" of two of the hijacked planes, which are built to withstand crashes and fire, were never found, an alleged hijacker's passport was miraculously found on top of a pile of rubble, near the WTC. Who put it there?

    28 How could documents incriminating bin Laden be found intact at the WTC, while two planes' "black boxes" were damaged beyond use?

    29 Why were the Cockpit Voice Recorders in the "black boxes" on the Pentagon jetliner and on the Pennsylvania airliner completely blank?

    Questions
     
  22. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Te Jen: I remember reading that the CVR/FDRs were recovered from at least one (I think it was USAir 93). They were not released to the public to "out of respect for the families of the victims".

    Baron: I'm not asking a lot, nor am I spinning a wild conspiracy theory. I think I have adequately explained why the pilots who carried out the attacks could not have acquired the skills that they demonstrated in the attacks simply from the civilian training that they are described as receiving. They certainly learned much more elsewhere, and the most likely source of those skills is military jet ground attack training. The most likely source of that tactical training would have been received from United States Air Force instructors.

    I am not implying that the USAF knowingly trained terrorists for the 9-11 attacks, or that any US government agency was complicit in the attacks. What I am implying is that the Bush Administration is suppressing information about the true source of these pilots' training for reasons I can only speculate about.

    Although I think that bringing up JFK is a deliberate distraction on your part, I will say that I also find the ballistics implausibe: Splaying the President over the back of his limousine, with his brains landing in the street and on bystanders behind the vehicle- with a shot from behind.

    But that's another thread. However, I consider the murkiness of the JFK assassination another example where no grand conspiracy is necessary on the part of the government in order for there to be motivation for the government to suppress information. Many Americans expect their government to have all the answers, and it is politically damaging in times of crisis for the government to admit not having timely, reassuring and definitive answers. I think there is strong motivation for the any administration to gloss things over for a national sense of closure, and so that political life can proceed.

    In the case of the training of the 9-11 pilots, I strongly suspect that they were indeed trained by American military instructors, and that the Bush Administration has decided this information is too sensitive. But they take us for fools in expecting pilots to accept the backgrounds we are publicly given for these terrorists. I hope that I have provided some sense from a pilot's perpective of the vast differences in skills used by civilian-trained commercial pilots, as compared with those practised by jet attack pilots, and that this information can assist those less familiar with aviation in contemplating the government-issue story from a more technically informed viewpoint.

    If you sincerely cannot follow my argument, Baron Max (and while I welcome your criticism it has been very circular) it could be that you are blinded by faith in the Bush Administration, and psychologically conditioned to reject information that challenges a dear trust. Anyone wishing to so trust this Administration must be psychologically conflicted on a regular basis, because the Bush team does have a unique pattern of credibility problems regarding national security issues. I hope you will review what I have written, and understand that I am not postulating some grand conspiracy- I'm only offering specific reasons why we should all be highly suspicious about the training history that we have been given regarding the 9-11 attack pilots.
     
  23. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Hype, you have nothing but your own opinions ....which are essentially worthless to anyone except yourself.

    Baron Max
     

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