Are all Climate crisis deniers conspiracy theorists?

Discussion in 'Earth Science' started by Quantum Quack, Sep 25, 2019.

  1. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    Given that I have been named AGW denier too (even if I have never denied the correctness of any scientific paper), the points where I disagree with what the media present are based on arguments and do not contain any hypotheses about conspiracies. See my arguments here. Try to find a conspiracy theory.

    First, it is a well-known fact and not a secret or defamation that Greta has mental problems. The information about this comes from the family itself. Then, those who argue about manipulation use also public information about their parents and groups and organizations related to them, so there is also no base for naming this conspiracy theory. Last but not least, this has nothing to do with any denial of facts because Greta acts on emotions, she does not present facts or argue about facts.
     
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  3. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Apart from angst and despair stemming from the unwillingness of people with power to act, what "mental problems" does Greta have? And what bearing do these alleged "mental problems" have upon what she is attempting to communicate?
     
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  5. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    You are colour my words with your outlook.

    However I will accept responsibility for being too casual and assuming you understand what I mean.

    Firstly I am not envious of folk with money and am reasonably well off..certainly such that I can have anything I want.

    Greedy consumption... driving a 12 cylinder car for example..wasteful..tearing out a perfectly good kitchen because you find fashion dictates something different this year... routinely throwing out clothes and various personal items simply because you don't like them any more and as money is not a consideration you ignore that energy was used to produce them that produces carbon ...

    No. I am stunned that you have no concept of wasteful.

    I beggar in the street can be wasteful...he goes to the park , turns on the tap to have a drink ..has his drink and walks away leaving the tap running ..that is wasteful.

    Leaving the tap running and not using the water..Leaving the lights on in the day time..throwing out food that could be eaten...what is so difficult to understand about the concept of waste?

    You could make a case along those lines particularly if our energy consumption needs to be managed.

    Think of the holes in the boat example...or does your philosophy demand that everyone should have the right to do what they want and that personal freedom always trumps the community?

    I never said it was...what I was pointing out was the manipulation using climate change.

    Says you.I do not deny the science..or have you missed that? Just because you make stuff up does not make it true.

    And all the people that I have discussed that aspect with are all on the side of the science...the use of the word is grossly objectionable and your take is wrong. Because you don't like what I say you reject the facts that I offer...what would you like me to do..obtain affidavits from those I ha e referred to above stating they find the word objectionable and that they are in step with the science..What would you say then? Oh that is too small a sample...I told you my experience and you ignore it and trundle on as if my facts do not exist.

    You are close minded.

    I don't know why I bother..look believe what you like..make up whatever reality you like..I really do not care.

    You see here is your problem..for whatever reason you have it in your bead that I deny the science..look man read what I have said and point out where I have said that..anyways let me make y position as clear as I can..I do not deny the science, I read as many of the finding that I come across.. there is plenty of evidence that warming is occurring... the hypothesis that it is caused by man although not provable (As far as I know) seems pretty reasonable given the correlations drawn by many scientists. My life style has me doing all that I can on the assumption that the proposition that the warming is man made is most likely true..solar panels, growing trees concern above consumption etc..I do not refuse to accept that the change is due to man and I don't know why you think other wise..but please point out where in any earlier text a d I will explain what I mean.

    I suppose you don't like me calling Al Gore hypocrite but that causes you to miss where I curse him for not practicing what he preached and in so doing gives ammunition to those who look for reason to reject the problem he presents but by his actions totally ignores...

    You are talking thru your hat.

    Look think what you like. If you think waste and "greedy"consumption is ok, and if you think Al Gore is good for the movement, and you want to ignore the fact that folk are upset by the use of "denier" and that is BS then think away...but you really are not thinking in my view.

    I don't care.. but note this...I act..I practice what I preach..you know solar panels, modest fosil fuel consumption not selling my trees ...tell me what have you done?

    Yes I am annoyed because you fail to read what I have said and hence I have blurred up...

    Moreover what few understand is calling those who do not accept that there is a problem nasty slimy names will not get you anywhere..backing practising hypocrite simply because they are on your side does more harm and damages your credibility.

    And rejecting a call for less waste as somehow threatening your ideal of freedom and suggesting I am just jealous is so shortsighted.. mate I don't have to be jealous of anyone ...not understanding that there is most likey hidden money seeking to profit and not giving a damn is unbelievable.

    Nice chatting with you as usual ..I hope you and yours are well and every one is in good health, happy and content.
    Have a great day.
    Alex
     
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  7. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    According to Wiki, Asperger syndrome, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), and selective mutism.
    Ask those who make claims about such a bearing or so. I have simply objected against QQ's accusations against those who discuss their mental problems.
     
  8. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    There was no need for her to argue facts except one salient fact and that being the lack of any real action to prevent a climate catastrophe that so many in this world are anticipating.
    She is only being a young version of David Attenborough any how...
    I suppose you think Sir David Attenborough has mental problems as well?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  9. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    how does her mental problems or alleged manipulators, change the message she delivered so accurately and sincerely?
     
  10. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    the reality is that all that so called excess will have to come to a halt whether we resort to name calling or not...
    We can either do it in an orderly fashion or we can do it in a state of chaos...and Human nature will dictate the result.
     
  11. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    That is an aspect of large scale polluting interests shifting the blame off legislation and onto personal responsibility. In other words, don't blame the fossil fuel industry for 100 years of political corruption and science denial, blame the consumer for their buying choices.
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,643
    Because they are not skeptics.

    I know several skeptics; one works here at UCSD. He is skeptical that climate change will always increase the intensity of storms. A given storm will likely hold more water, and very large storms (that reach the tropopause) will be more intense due to the temperature differential - but he argues that those are a very small percentage of storms, and most will not be made more intense. He does not deny the climate is changing, or that anthropogenic gases are the primary reason, or that many changes will be problematic. So he is characterized by skepticism, not denial.

    Compare that to a climate change denier. On Monday, they might deny that the temperature is changing at all, because someone found an error in a NASA GISS data set. "Al Gore is LYING! There is NO WARMING! It ended in 1998!" On Tuesday, they may decide that it's all natural. "Look, no one is denying that there is warming. But it's a natural cycle! The climate ALWAYS changes! Get over it!" On Wednesday, they might decide that it's a good thing. "Sure, we might have something to do with it. But look - CO2 is an amazingly effective aerial fertilizer that will feed the planet and turn it green again! And who doesn't like to be warm? Heck, we will save the polar bears with all this warming!"

    He is not consistent on any scientific premise in the entire discussion. The one and only consistent part of his position is denial.

    Imagine a similar situation where Sean Hannity, a media personality and strong Trump supporter, decides he doesn't want to be called a Trump supporter because of all the negative press about Trump - he feels like he will be tarnished by association. So, while he continues to strongly support Trump, he does not want the 'insulting' term "Trump supporter" applied to him, and insists that the media and public call him "truth supporter."

    Should we oblige him?
    Not at all. They want to be seen as brilliant independent thinkers, and whenever anyone questions them, they will react poorly. So they'd much prefer a word like "skeptic" or "independent thinker" or "alternative expert" or something. Any word that indicates they are denying science will be rejected by them.

    So what word would you propose?
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
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  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Every conspiracy theory out there uses "public information." Anti-vaxxers, 9/11 truthers and Apollo hoaxers regularly present publicly available papers, images, radio recordings and videos as "proof" of their conspiracy theory.
    "cutting our emissions in half in 10 years only gives us a 50% chance of staying below 1.5 degrees"
    "To have a 67% chance of staying below a 1.5 degrees global temperature rise – the best odds given by the [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change] – the world had 420 gigatons of CO2 left to emit back on Jan. 1st, 2018."
     
  14. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,643
    Agreed there.
    People who have concerns aren't deniers.
    Greta Thunberg came to the UN to give a speech in a sailboat. She was crucified for that. She was a "hypocrite" because some of the boat's crew flew back to Europe. She was a "hypocrite" because the sailboat took energy to build. So I don't see how it matters in terms of public opinion; anyone advocating for slowing down climate change will be called a hypocrite no matter what they do.
    ?? How does that demonstrate hypocrisy? Worst case sea level rise by 2100 is 1.2 meters. By 2050 it is less than half that. If a 50 year old guy buys a waterfront home that is safe as long as sea levels rise less than a meter, how is that hypocritical?
     
  15. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    5,003
    Ask yourself. All that I have done is to note that Greta has indeed mental problems and that this is nothing but a well-known fact. And that those who claim manipulations do this based on arguments about her parents and connected organizations which are also public domain.

    So, both things are in no way conspiracy theories. If those guys who use these points in their own argumentation really have a point or not is a very different question, as well as what is their point. Given that I'm not interested in ad hominem arguments at all, I will not even take a look at such arguments.

    All I can tell you is that I have seen some Russians and Germans writing similar things, their main point is simply the "you are played by professionals" point which iceaura likes to use to defame me. So, it is, by its nature, an ad hominem: Those who support this movement play dirty polit-technological tricks. Even if true, the aims of the movement could nonetheless be correct.

    Your supposition shows that you are unable or unwilling to interpret my texts in a reasonable way.

    And this seems to be a quite common feature here.

    1.) I do not speculate about the mental problems of other people, because this would be cheap ad hominem. All I have done was to correct your error - you were obviously not aware that Greta really has some mental problems.

    2.) I do not support any argumentation based on those mental problems, given that they would be only ad hominem.

    (Aside: All that I do is to look with some technological interest at how this movement is organized. The basic techniques are well known and worked out in detail, we have seen many applications of these techniques in all those color revolutions. So the well-organized mass media hype is standard. But there may appear something new, unexpected, like in this case the use of a child with mental problems as the leader.)

    Ok, once you want to name them conspiracy theorists, feel free to do it.
    And this is what has impressed the people in her speech? Not the purely emotional "How dare you!" and "We will not let you get away with this"?
     
  16. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    8,872
    I understand the dictionary definition of wasteful. Buying new clothes and remodeling a kitchen isn't my idea of "wasteful". Someone else may consider buying telescopes, an RV to sit in while using a telescope and such as wasting resources.

    Do we really need a judge for this kind of thing? I don't see many 12 cylinder cars going down the road but if the idea is upsetting to you then...OK. I don't think it has a major bearing on climate change though.

    Nothing is difficult to understand. Why are you stuck on this? Shall we not address global climate change until after everyone turns out all the lights that you deem unnecessary? Is there a big problem with people leaving lights on during the day?


    Why do we continue to talk about a word that you and your friends find objectionable? OK, you don't like the word "denier". Now what?


    I don't particularly like Al Gore and if I did it would not be relevant here. Everyone can be called a hypocrite by someone else who disagrees with how they live their life. Some poor person in Africa could consider you a hypocrite. Does that make you one? No. Would it matter even if it were true? No.

    We are talking about climate change and you are talking about words that you find offensive and practices that you feel are large contributors to global climate change such as people driving 12 cylinder cars, leaving lights on in the day time and taking showers that are too long?
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
  17. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I have lost interest.
    And really what is the point when no one is interested in my concern.
    Just forget that I raised the point.
    Thank you for your input.
    Alex
     
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    There is a saying..not only must justice be done but must seen to be done. And at that time there were Labour politicians scarring pensioners that their homes would be flooded by sea level rise...I don't recall any sensible qualification but I do recall BS scare tactics.
    Folk listening to that guys doom and gloom re sea level rise saw it as hypocritical.
    Alex
     
  19. Benson Registered Senior Member

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    Please read my full post and not the edited version by the other poster.
     
  20. Benson Registered Senior Member

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    I would appreciate it that you list my full quote and not cherry pick snippets. It avoids you from distorting what I said. Just had a poster look at your post with my edited quote and they've simply dribbled on unnecessarily.
     
  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    But I did not buy it. It was a gift from a stranger who found out that I had helped a friend of hers with free legal advice.

    You clearly miss my point in all of this. Think of it this way. You find your household is spending too much money ...you know you need to find a better paying job but in the mean time you review your budget and seek ways to reduce expenditure....the way you wriggle to avoid such a simple realisation that wastfulness is a good place to start baffles me.
    Your effort to trivialize waste baffles me.
    You want to reduce ommissions


    but think addressing the un necessary use of energy is irrelevant?
    OK keep drilling holes in the boat.
    At last some recognition ..thank you.
    You want to reduce ommissions and so do I, I see wasteful use of energy which I regard as part of the problem and being part of the problem think it would be a sensible approach to address this aspect...why would addressing waste be any less important than getting rid of incandescent light bulbs.
    Think of it along the lines of a water problem...you know you need another water tank because the old one does not hold enough for your needs...while waiting for your new tank it could be a good idea to sweep the path rather than hose it down.
    I am baffled to understand why given the desire and need to reduce ommissions why addressing issues that will save energy that is wasted for no good reason is not important.
    Well of course it is relevant.
    You simply can not act inconsistent with your publically expressed position and you can say that is not so if that is what you believe but hypocracy has brought many folk down...
    And look at the responses here to my concerns...And I am the highly concerned side, .....any observation or criticism is jumped on...so how do you expect to win folk over who don't believe you...I know tell them they are fools, that their concerns are stupid and Al can drive a V 12 if he wants..
    Again nice hearing your responses and I hope your country can realise as it created the problem it should lead the world to a solution.
    But perhaps do something about Law Vegas or at least understand why it causes the rest of the world to think the US is a joke when it comes to doing anything about climate change.
    Alex
     
  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Sure but I can't do anything to edit now. I will look and see what has happened. And I certainly was not trying to distort what you said but if that has happened I offer you my apology. I shall look. Thanks for raising your concern. Have a great day.
    Alex
     
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  23. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    To save everyone perhaps looking for the original post and my attempt to fix any problem I may have created.
    Alex
     

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