Are all dissenting voices cranky ?

Here's a fairy story for you paddoboy.

Once upon a time around 30 years ago there was a place where experienced principles ran schools, experienced deans ran faculties, experienced surgeons ran hospitals, experienced mining engineers ran mining companies and experienced electrical engineers ran communications companies etc. The experienced principles took pride in educating the children, the experienced deans took pride in expanding the now young adults education to train them as competent teachers, engineers and doctors etc. Then some bright spark thought these principles, deans, surgeons and engineers etc need a hand in managing their responsibilities so they insert another layer of administration managers and support staff between them and the schools, faculties, hospitals, mining and communications companies etc. The beauty of this, they said, is that these administration managers will only need to know how to manage, they don't actually have to know anything about what they are managing so they can be churned out en mass and everybody will live happily ever after.

Unfortunately these administration managers realised that if they promoted the competent teachers, doctors and engineers into their ranks they would have to find someone else to do the real work or actually train someone who knew what they were doing to do the real work so they appointed another layer of middle managers to manage all of this so they could get on with their original purpose, administration, and find some way to pay for all of them. Then some bright spark appointed an economic rocket scientist to help them and they did some amazing things that no competent principal, dean, surgeon or engineer would ever do, and came up with enough money to pay for all of the administrators and more and set a precedent that swept all of the competent hard working principals, deans, surgeons and engineers from their lofty positions and provided healthy bonuses to boot. To make things even better they all got on well together as the management team and nobody said a bad word about anybody else.

Now the more outspoken competent ones started to complain and the administrators realised they had a big team problem. If you had one competent person in your team, who actually knew that nobody actually knew what they were doing, apart from administration, then you would have embarrassing whistle blowers and you would look bad. It was so much easier to get rid of the dedicated competent people to keep the team happy and guarantee a public perception of competence. So to do this they introduced performance management systems and just performance managed the outspoken competent people, who were worried about incompetence and waste, out of there by stonewalling them and claiming they had communication problems.

There were a couple of tiny little problem though, the schools didn't educate the children properly even with huge cash injections, the universities turned out young adults with degrees who couldn't spell or do practical work, the hospital system required increasingly large amounts of money to operate, the telecommunications systems started to fail despite massive injections of money and the mining industry expanded massively. To solve their immediate need for competent people to do the work the administrators devised a visa system where they would employ foreign workers for 2 years. This was just the icing on the cake because none of these people would care if the administrators were incompetent or were wasting huge amounts of money at the companies/countries expense because they weren't citizens, had no vested interest, and would go home after 2 years with oodles of cash whether things worked or not as all they had to do was tell the administrators what the administrators wanted to hear, actually doing it didn't matter so while spoil a good thing.

The down side to this was the administrators had developed a system where 'see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil' became the norm and hey guess what, evil ruled, the competent ones who were shafted became very cranky, the economic rocket science didn't work and then the wheels fell off.

 

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1. It cannot be the argument that the issue is coming from guys working at the coal fields so it must be correct. Sure, it adds to weightage, but needs specific validation.

2. I am yet to talk about GR on this thread, pl don't jump the gun.

3. Yes, points concerning cosmology shall be taken, one by one. Start is simple with our solar system orbit. Rest all is your choice, your tone is certainly not befitting a mod, that's why I suggested invisibility for mods in some other thread. Cool down..

 

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And it goes on ; and on ; and on .

 

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LaurieAG,

Well said !
For top honchos of mainstream cosmology it will be so embarrassing if BH alone fails. So the competent research or pragmatic research which attempts to question the malaise is bulldozed, consigned to dusbin. But for how long ? 2025.


Sometimes I wonder about Stephen Hawking...who is he ? How he has survived so long with such disability ?

 

It could take this long .

But the young are not as brainwashed . They aren't.

So I'm hoping for sooner.

 

While I like capitalism ; it is also very money ; hence power based .

Money is what backs research and therefore power controls ideas ; publicly .

The real ideas the ones that actually count ; have thick doors to the room . And guards .

 

Why is this thread in 'Astronomy, Exobiology and Cosmology'?

I'm assuming you are asking whether they are all cranks, not whether they are all irritable.

I'd say that disagreeing with the majority isn't necessarily an indication of being a crank provided that justification for the disagreement is strong enough. Determining that is going to be the controversial part, since most cranks are totally convinced their peculiar ideas are justified. It's a matter of convincing the rest of the scientific community, I guess. If they aren't convinced, they won't be convinced.

I think that it does. If one looks at the details of most scientific theories, at the cutting edge at least (as opposed to introductory levels) one encounters active controversies. There are often alternative speculative hypotheses in play, and attempts will be made to invent experiments, observational tests or whatever, to help determine which is right.

The body of evidence indicating that flat-earthers are wrong is huge. Questioning the existence of black holes is more subtle. (Is it questioning the existence of singularities? Super-massive objects?) I think that the evidence for each of those is probably different, both qualitatively and quantitatively, with the evidence for super-massive astronomical objects stronger than the evidence for singularities. One is more observational, the other more theoretical, and I'm inclined to weight the former heavier than the latter.

If this is intended to be a battle-thread between heretics and defenders of orthodoxy, then shouldn't it be in 'Alternative theories'?

It's interesting, but unrealistic. I don't think that most of Sciforums participants have a strong enough grasp on fundamental science in special areas where controversies arise to be able to explain why the majority of professionally trained scientists say what they do about those controversies. I'm not convinced that the majority of Sciforums readers are sophisticated enough to find subtle defects in arguments that are well stated and appear superficially plausible. So if you want to set laypeople up in battle over issues in advanced cosmology (or whatever it is), you will have ignorance battling ignorance. People will get frustrated and angry, and things will devolve into a flame war.

Sciforums already has a special place set aside for that: the fringe forums.

 

Yazata,

You are underestimating the populace here. If you feel that people here are mostly lacking in deeper knowledge, then what is the science sub forums are about ? What do you want to discuss here ? I am of the opinion cosmology has many issues which are not clear to lay or even to fairly literate person, these issues must be discussed and settled. You agreed upon subtlety of BH, now there is one more that is curving of spacetime. I want that all these issues are taken up and settled. This will be a good thread if we can control derailers...

 

I have already set the ball rolling with our solar system....the commonly held view is that it orbits around GC...The point of discussion is how is so when there are billions of stars and around 33% are in binary or multi stars arrangement..

I see no reason why such discussions cannot be taken up in science section....
More to follow after that.

 

stuff up

 

What a whole lot of wasted cyber space for a fairy story.
As one who has come in late to this thread and the poor excuse of the initiator of the thread to support his flagging near non-existent credibility due to his well known religious agenda, let me ask you a few things.........
[1] Do you believe new science, new physics, new cosmological ideas, will ever be born on forums open to all and sundry such as this one?
[2] Do you believe that those that decry all of 21st century cosmology, the BB, SR/GR, without any credentials, on said science forum, really have anything concrete in their arsenal?
[3] Do you believe or give any credence to anyone who claims he is never wrong?
[4] Do you accept the line of conspiracy pushers and adherents, similar to the line being pushed by the instigator of this thread, that GP-B and aLIGO are fraudulent claims?
Do you believe that anyone that aligns with any or all points above, are in anyway genuine and do not have an agenda?

Let me tell you a true story now:
The Initiator of this thread does align with all 4 points above.
The Initiator does have an agenda as much as he will try and deny it.
So perhaps you need to be addressing such a person instead of me, OK?
Or do you also support his contention that all of cosmology is basically wrong?
Do you also support his conspiracy theory that 21st century cosmology, GP-B and aLIGO were fraudulent experiments?
Or more to the point, instead of rattling off stupid fairy stories, why not explain your position and either rebuff some of the silly irrational claims that have been made by this poster, or align and agree with him so that we all nkow where you are coming from?

 

Discussions on a science forum are welcome and are just that...discussions.
Fairy stories or alternative hypotheticals such as you put need to be in the fringes with your other nonsense.

Now to correct your incorrect premise:
The solar system orbits around the SMBH and the galactic center, although there are other motions superimposed on the generality of the orbit due to the non symmetric distribution of the mass between our solar system and the galactic center. We consequently have small movements towards the center and away from the center, and also motions above and below the spiral arm in which we are at this stage.
The Sun does not orbit directly any other stars and is a single stellar system, amid a huge variety of stellar systems within the galaxy...binary, trinary and even greater systems.
The galaxy members are kept as a galactic structure due to the effects of each stars gravity on other stars and so on, with of course the controlling feature of the SMBH near the center: Also throughout the MW galaxy system is conglomerations and streams of DM as well as in the form of a halo structure around the galaxy proper.
Our own galaxy the Milky Way is gravitationally bound to many other galaxies in what we call the local group, which is then part of an even larger conglomerate galactic structure called the Virgo Supercluster.

Sorry at this stage no links to support the above recognised premise, but if you doubt any of it, or feel like putting in any magical deity Spaghetti monster then let us know and I'm sure I will be able to cooperate.

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I don't believe you.
After so many threads either closed and locked, or moved to the fringes due to nonsensical claims and denial of reputable supported facts, this is just another effort of you to push your ongoing evangelistic mission re rebuffing 21st century cosmology, without any evidence or substantial argument, or in anyway invalidating the incumbent system as a whole.

 

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Settled?????? Why are you such an expert in having yourself on?
This forum is not academia.....this forum is not the bastion of cosmological knowledge with you as its master and Saviour......This forum is no more that a drop in the world's Oceans.....You are unknown my friend.....I am unknown....this forum is virtually unknown....So tell me, what are you settling?
What are your religious overlords directing you to do?

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Perhaps too like the rest of us they see you as beyond redemption and just good for cannon fodder?
Really, your posts are making you sound like an Ass.

 

Anyone here has the right to reply to any post he chooses.
Your questions have been answered and answered correctly, according to current knowledge.
You refuse to accept or just fail to understand those answers.
The problem rests with you to get yourself up to speed and aligned with current accepted data, and also the trolling problem you obviously have after being caught with your pants around your ankles so often in recent times.

Your rage and angst against science for not recognising your personal favourite fairy stories of paranormal, supernatural and Alien invasion intrigue, will get you nowhere.
Brighten up...Stop your ridiculous, childish one liners, and failed silly attempts at philosophical excellence, because you come up miles short.....learn why science is what it is....Learn why the scientific method has treated us well and is essential to science, yourself, myself and the world you inhabit...learn that you are absolutely nothing without the disciplines of science...learn that if it wasn't for science, and the scientific method, you would still be swinging in the trees.
You see river ol son, all the scientific method is, is the application of common sense and logic, dictated by the results of our experiments and the clearness of our observations.
When you see that, and recognise it for what it is, then perhaps your inane beliefs in the supernatural, paranormal and Alien invasions illusions, may cease.
We can all only hope, for your own sanity.

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Since Rpenner hinted shifting to general science sub forum, I presume this shifting to free thought is by him.

What is this Rpenner ? What do you want in science section ? Plazma type science news ? Or you want to conduct tutorial for your tensor maths ? You asked me if issues regarding cosmology will come or not, I clarified still you pushed is out. This shows lack of ability of taking just decisions. You are so shaken that you used your previous thread prejudice against me in this thread.

 

Perhaps if you stopped trying to be some imagined saviour overlord of 21st century cosmology and GR, and ask questions with an attitude towards learning, instead of a crazy fanatical attitude of thinking you are teaching anyone anything, then your threads may have some credibility.

 

And with your title of this thread, no all dissenting voices are not crank.....There are some areas of science that are open to debate and controversial.
But when crazy dissenting voices start with crazy conspiracy nonsense as claiming GP-B and aLIGO are fraudulent, just to name one aspect of your crazy game, then those dissenting voices are almost certainly crank inspired and crazy to boot.

 

The Plazma type science news is excellent and covers abroad range of issues, quite relevant to a science forum.
But I may try posting a few more myself and make his work load somewhat easier.
And of course if you prefer not to read science, then I suggest you join those that are tickling their delusions and illusions in the ghosts, Aliens, paranormal section.

 

No, not all dissenting voices are regarded cranky. Take for example Ilja Schmelzer. He was a math prodigy when he was young, he won gold medal in World math Olympiad and had good education in math. And he is pursuing non mainstream physics now. He has written good papers, which were published in peer reviewed journals, and actually is one of few active scientists on this forum. It is very hard to do non mainstream research and he will get no financial grant for it, but there is a chance. But if it should lead to some success, there is much much hard work and study needed.