Are Christians Expected to be Sinless???

Recently, someone put forth Martin Luther King, Jr. as somewhat of a model Christian who stood for non-violence, peace and love. There were immediate responses which called him an adulterer in a seeming attempt to discredit his Christianity. I do not know if he commited adultery or not and that is not the issue here.

Using the above as an example only, I would like to hear your opinion with respect to the following three questions:

Do you expect Christians to be sinless because they rebuke sin?

Do you have the impression that by virtue of being a Christian who spreads God's teachings against sin, the Christian believes that they are holier than thou and without sin?

If a Christian sins, in your eyes, does this discredit them from answering their call to spread the Word of God concerning sin, forgiveness and salvation through Jesus Christ?

Believe me, I realize that it is sometimes difficult to do but, I would truly appreciate it if we could stay on topic here and address the three questions above. Thanks!

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True--

When a politician commits a "social" sin, we expect that politician to lie about it. We expect denial.

Like other aspects of social organization and common life, though, we do have higher expectations of Christians, who pronounce that superlative standard.

It bothers me not when Christians sin. But when they feel they have some "right" to behave as shamefully as, say, politicians, and deflect issues and deny culpability, it's that much more of a dagger right into Jesus' side. And that's almost sick enough to be funny to me.

But when these shameful, denying people try to encourage, enforce, or cause a standard that THEY THEMSELVES refuse to live up to in practice, then I don't care whose banner you wave, you're taking part in the very cesspool that Christian philosophy claims to transcend.

Non-christians don't need to be annoyed by the sin; after all, the sinners often go out of their way to be annoying. I expect this annoyance of people in general, but not from people who claim to be above such conduct.

thanx,
Tiassa

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The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

 

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True,

I must apologize for the irrelevance of my last post. I hadn't properly noticed the limitation on considerations.

Unfortunately, yes, Dr. King committed adultery. But it wasn't his Christianity they were after, but his credibility as a man who stood for family and unity. His Christianity was the tool exploited in that campaign.

So: No, Christians need not be sinless since they rebuke sin.

No: The idea that someone is an evangelical Christian does not automatically make them holier-than-thou.

No, a Christian who sins does not discredit their need to answer God's call.

There. Nice and neat, just like you asked. As one note, however, I need to add the idea that most Christians are already aware of this kind of moral construct, and are happily ready to exploit it and wash themselves of their own sin. That rampant practice is more discrediting to Christianity, and unfortunately, it's rife among the faithful.

--Tiassa

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The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

 

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Tiassa,

You are sooooo lost, it's ALMOST funny. I don't have time to get into it with you right now, but you are sooooooooooooooooo lost, and as in lost, don't think I'm only talking about your soul. I'm talking about your lack of intelligence. Sorry, I'm just stating facts here. You wouldn't know what Christianity was if it walked up and bit you in the ass.

And to answer your question TS, no, I do not believe that anyone is stupid enough to actually think that Christians are sinless. There may be a few Christians who may have totally missed the point of the entire religion and entertain the idea themselves anyway, but they would have to be pretty dense not to get that message (like borderline retarded). What I think that you are talking about, is the fact that lots of people like Tiassa and many others on this board, WANT to believe that we think we're sinless, and that our religion somehow teaches us that we are sinless, so that when they see a Christian committing a sin, they can jump up and point and say, "Ah ha! See, I told you your faith was a bunch of BS! If your faith meant anything, then all of you Christians would be perfect!" Which of course, in their little tiny teeny feeble brains, gives them the scapegoat that they are looking for, to deny the faith. When in reality THEY KNOW that this little stupid arguement or justification of theirs makes no logical sense whatsoever, but that's ok, as long as they don't have to humble themselves to their Lord that's all that matters. Talk about some illogical BS.

The Bible and the faith and Jesus made it very, very, very, very clear that WE ALL fall short. Waaaaaaaay short. Everyone on this earth is a sinner, like it or not. So what does that tell us boys and girls? Very good! Yes, that Christians sin too. What a concept. So why then, Tiassa and others, is one of your most major contentions with Christianity is the sin of Christians????????? If anything, the sin of Christians, just like the sin of everyone, PROVES that the faith is 100% correctamundo. Come on guys, this is easier than algebra.

Oh, and I missed that one. Hey TS, were you aware that WE wash away OUR OWN sin??????????!!!!!!!! ROFLMAO!!!!! Tiassa, I'm sorry, but you are soooooo ass-backwards! Homey, I don't have that kind of power for crying out loud! If I was powerful enough to wash away my own sin, then logic tells you that I would have to be powerful enough to avoid sinning altogether. But of course you're wrong, and of course that's an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. Of course, what else would I expect. You know, I'm getting bored. You non-believers out there need to come up with some LOGICAL debate. I'm sick of the same repeated illogical rhetoric. You make no sense.

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[This message has been edited by Lori (edited January 06, 2000).]

 

Lori--

Quite simply, my beef with Christians and sin is when the alleged Christian who is allegedly sinning chooses to deny the sin through political arguments; how can a Christian employ a process it decries in pagans?

Okay ... let's take a very blatant example that I've used in other contexts before:

* A pastor from a community near Seattle was arrested in Florida for Lewd Conduct; specifically, he stood accused of masturbating in a public restroom. Now, frankly, I could care less. If asked to offer an opinion, it would be that everybody masturbates, and that it would be wise, next time, to do it privately in his home or hotel room, or at least in his car.

But the pastor's first response was that he was the victim of a politically motivated smear campaign. Personally, I expect this from presidents, senators, governors, and others of that sort. But the elders and his congregation came to his defense and ... not only did it turn out to be true, that he had been caught in this act, it also became apparent that he had attempted to enlist the local sheriff in a coverup. THAT is what I object to.

I don't expect Christians to be without sin, but if y'all are supposed to be in possession of a better philosophy, how does a Christian justify that kind of deceit in trying to bury evidence of the sin through lies and graft?

This is an idea that's so common among American Christians it's sad. Christ didn't just heal the symptoms, did he? He didn't make the appearance of a wound go away; from what I understand of the Christian tradition, he healed the causes of the symptoms.

Truly, Christians might believe themselves imperfect in Christ's image, but that's no excuse to abandon the philosophy and take part in the kind of political spinning that Christians have, since their inception, argued against. Of course, to be fair, it's a practice that, since their inception, they have engaged regularly.

That's what I don't get ... Christians claim to have the best thing going, and choose instead to run with the dogs while complaining about getting fleas.

Sorry, I'd rather be lost in a Christian land than found and saved in corrupted grace. If Christ is ever to move me to his faith, it will be because I understand how that faith interacts with my station in life. By and large, though, the simplicity required to maintain a faithful regard would be a step backward in my ability to relate with the world at large.

And to withdraw myself from humanity, in general, in favor of a cause so lost that it might not find itself in my lifetime ... well, True might think me dumb, and while I have my own shortcomings, I'm not that bloody, outright stupid.

What it comes down to is this: So I convert, and then I get old and die, and on my judgement day, God says: "You have besmirched My Name with your ill-conceived representations of My House."

Or is that part of faith, too? The assumption that God's as pleased as punch with your interpretations, as long as you put Jesus' name at the top of the list?

Oh, and Lori, dear, if accepting things blindly and never exploring the more difficult facets of that faith constitutes intelligence, then I choose blissful ignorance.

On the other hand, I could assert that your blind faith is self-destructive. Certainly you might examine the faults of your faith, but do you ever transcend your own moment in order to perform that examination? Hmm, I think the roof might be leaking--don't see any cracks in the ceiling, so it must be fine. Um, don't you have to GO OUTSIDE to see the roof?

Or is your roof and ceiling made of glass, so that you can see that answer? In that case, I need not remind you about throwing stones.

You're so damn haughty for one of God's humble flock. Have you got anything better than "lack of intelligence", or the presence of the antichrist to offer? Have you any ideas that aren't prescribed by the Bible? Or is evolution still a sin to you?

If you'd like to demonstrate your lack of a lack of intelligence, then I would suggest that you, and other posting Christians who lack a lack of intelligence, might wish to address some of your history, and some of your philosophy, and stop making yourselves and your perceptions of God the focus of your faith. There is much to learn from those people whose footsteps you follow. I can't believe you would give that up just because it's easier to limit yourself to one book.

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--Tiassa

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The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited January 06, 2000).]

 

tiassa,

I'm really shocked to see that you are beginning to understand some things (though surely not all). Also, you are correct. The childish ones, the back sliders, and the fakers do discredit Christanity greatly. Isn't that what the Bible always predected about the last days? Isn't that Satan's goal to weaken God's people with confusion and self serving lusts?

As for your later posts, let me sum it up with this. To be a Christian is to follow Christ,... not the actions of other Christians (good or bad). You live by mob rule. We live by the Living Word of God!

Jesus is my Rock,
ISDAMan

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited January 06, 2000).]

 

truestory-In regards to your question, I expect of Christians what I expect of all others. Practice what you preach. If they preach purity, then they should be pure themselves, or at least try to be. Sometimes the effort alone is a triumph. But few things frost me as much as someone telling me that I need to be peaceful and keep a kind heart and listen to what they are saying when they are lashing out violently at others who's opinions differ from theirs. This, unfortunately, has become the stereotype of Christians, and if it is to be mended then it is up to the Christians to mend it.

I do not expect Christians to be sinless because I do not expect of others what I do not expect of myself.

I do not believe that all Christians are holier-than-thou, but there are plenty of obnoxious boors in their ranks, as in other ranks.

If a Christian commits a sin (by my definition) it only discredits them if they do so without acknowledging that they are only human. Jim Baker, Jerry Fallwell, and Jimmy Swaggart come to mind as those I count as discredited. Crocodile's tears these circus clowns cry. But anyone who stumbles and gets up saying "oops..." or has the guts to face up to it is only made more credible by their actions.

Generally speaking, those who take up the cloth are led by the purest of intentions, to minister to those in need. They suffer with their faith when church politics get in the way. Then their faith is tested to the sorest degree and the sinners are exalted to high church offices while the saints stay down here in the muck and slime, right where they're needed most.

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Thanks for your responses everyone!

I'd like to offer some comments, if I may...

It would be useless to expect a Christian man or woman to be sinless even if they rebuke sin, because we can walk with Jesus Christ and rebuke sin for the rest of our mortal lives but none of us will ever be sinless in this mortal lifetime as we know it. With the exception of one unique individual, we are all sinners here on this earth, including Christians. So, I expect everyone to sin, including Christians.

To be honest, there are some Christians who give me the impression that they believe that they are holier than thou and without sin by virtue of being a Christian and spreading God's word against sin. To be honest, there are also some non-Christians who give me the impression that they believe that they are holier than thou for various reasons. It is useless for any one of us to think such a thing about ourselves. We are all sinners and we are all in this world on equal footing in the eyes of God. God knows that only Jesus Christ could be without sin. So, no matter what we do, God loves us all. God hates our sins, but God still loves us all equally.

While we are here, none of us are discredited by our sins in the eyes of God and none of us can be discredited from spreading the Word of God. Yes, God hates the sins of the Jeffrey Dahmers and the Mother Teresas of this world. However, God loves the Jeffrey Dahmers of the world as much as He loves the Mother Teresas. A Jeffrey Dahmer will not be discredited as a Christian and refused salvation in the eyes of God if he truly repents for his sins, truly asks for God's forgiveness, truly accepts God's great gift of salvation through Jesus Christ and has the Spirit of Jesus Christ with him when his mortal body dies. God will know this man's true spirit on his judgement day.

Conversely, a Mother Teresa will not be credited as a Christian and granted salvation in the eyes of God if she does not truly repent for her sins, does not truly ask for God's forgiveness, does not truly accept God's great gift of salvation through Jesus Christ and does not have the Spirit of Jesus Christ with her when her mortal body dies. God will know this woman's true spirit on her judgement day.

If sin discredited someone from answering their call to spread the Word of God concerning sin, forgiveness and salvation through Jesus Christ, then it would have been uselss for God to give us the Word to spread. God knows that, with the exception of one, we are all sinners. If sin discredited one from spreading God's Word, then none of us would be fit to spread the Word of God, with the exception of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is unique in that He was the only man to have ever lived a sinless life. He is also unique in that He was both all man and all God and could not possibly sin against Himself. God is something which we, as men and women, will never be. However, it is Jesus Christ who showed us HOW to live a perfectly pure and sinless life and Jesus Christ is the unique model for Christianity. As Oxygen pointed out, as men and women, we can strive to be Christ-like... that is, we can strive to be pure in heart, like Christ. We can strive to be without sin, even rebuke sin as Jesus Christ did. However, we can never BE pure and sinless as men and women because, unlike Jesus Christ, we are not God. So, it is useless to expect to find pure Christianity in men and women. You will never find it in them. It is useless to look to men and women to set the standards for Christianity because they cannot. Jesus Christ alone set the standards for Christianity. It is useless to put forth other human beings as representative of Christianity, because they are not and can never be Jesus Christ... Jesus Christ is the only one without sin and the only true representative of Christianity. As men and women, we can sometimes identify by a Christian's actions whether or not they were with the Spirit of Jesus Christ at a given time in their life. If, as ISDAMan pointed out, they slid backwards, it does not discredit their Christianity. By truly repenting for our sins, whatever they may be, by truly asking God's forgiveness, by truly accepting God's great gift of salvation through Jesus Christ and by going to God with the Spirit of Jesus Christ on our judgement day, our sins will be forgiven. When that will happen is different for each of us. So, we need to be prepared by striving to have the Spirit of Jesus Christ with us always because we need Him with us in order to be judged free of sin before entering the pure and sinless Kingdom of God.

Thanks for taking the time to listen.

May the peace of the Lord, Jesus Christ, be with us all!




[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 07, 2000).]

 

With regard to question 1 do not expect Christians to be free from sin. If we were, we would need no Saviour and the whole question of following Jesus would be moot.
Question 2: I am not holier then thou, I am a servant of Jesus who is called by virtue of his baptism to spread the message of forgiveness and reconcilliation. I cannot be greater then the one I serve who said that he comes to serve, not to be served. If anyone has an attitude of "holier then thou", they have missed the point totally.
Question 3: If a Christian sins, he can ask for and get the forgiveness that is promised to all. This is shown by the three fold denial of Peter being changed to a three fold affirmation of faith by the questions that Jesus asked him and the commands that he gave to "feed my and tend my sheep."
The transmittal of this story over the years must have given great hope to people(I know it did, and does to me)as they fall due to their humanity and rise due to the forgiving power of God. Relating their own personal story of falling and rising as they spread the message of Jesus can only help to convince people of its power as they see how God works in ordinary peoples lives.

 

Wonderful, frank - and thanks!

May the peace of the Lord, Jesus Christ, be with you always!

 

Ts,

quote:
, God loves the Jeffrey Dahmers of the world as much as He loves the Mother Teresas. A Jeffrey Dahmer will not be discredited as a Christian and refused salvation in the eyes of God if he truly repents for his sins, truly asks for God's forgiveness, truly accepts God's great gift of salvation through Jesus Christ and has the Spirit of Jesus Christ with him when his mortal body dies. God will know this man's true spirit on his judgement day.

So what about these type of people that are so F*&^%d up in the head that they simply cannot understand or feel that they have commited horrendous sins?
Is there a chance that their 'true spirit' is sinless enough for God?
Do you think God can take into account a persons psyche?
If so, dont you think that we all suffer from some kind of warped psyche?

 

TS,

I'm not certain whether you understood my grounds for stating that one should be careful when making assumptions about whether or not Dr. King was a true Christian.

In the thread you are referring to, I posted a webpage address that contained one Christian woman's argument against MLK being a Christian. You may not have read that page, but her arguments were persuasive, and they had nothing to do with his alleged adultery. Since many of the links on that page were broken, I would like to post a link to one of Dr. King's papers on Mithraism and its influence on Christianity below, along with the conclusion of that paper:

http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/papers/vol1/491123-A_Study_of_Mithraism.htm

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www.indigenousrocks.com

 

TS,

Here is another paper written by Dr. King, entitled, "What Experiences of Christians Living in the Early Christian Century Led to the Christian Doctrines of the Divine Sonship of Jesus, the Virgin Birth, and the Bodily Resurrection", followed by an excerpt from that paper:

http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/papers/vol1/491123-What_Experiences_of_Christians.htm

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www.indigenousrocks.com

 

TS,

Here is another paper entitled, "The Sources of Fundamentalism and Liberalism Considered Historically and Psychologically", where Dr. King criticizes fundamentalist thinking:

http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/papers/vol1/491123-The_Sources_of_Fundamentalism_and_Liberalism.htm

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www.indigenousrocks.com

 

TS, Lori, ISDAMan & other Christians:

In light of the above information regarding the theology of the late Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., coupled with the Christian "test of spirits", do you still think MLK was a true Christian? Or do you think that maybe his guiding spirit was antichrist, as it has been previously defined on this board?

Note: This question has nothing to do with Dr. King's other accomplishments in his lifetime, or whether or not he sinned - the question is simply, "Do you believe MLK was a true Christian?"

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www.indigenousrocks.com

 

TS,

I know you asked that we stay on topic here and address your 3 questions, which I will do in a moment. However, the point of my previous posts in this thread was that the entire topic was "off-topic" in the sense that your reason for posting it was due to a misunderstanding of what I had posted in another thread (at least, that's how it appears to me).

Now to answer your 3 questions:


Q1. Do you expect Christians to be sinless because they rebuke sin?

No, but I do expect a sincere effort on the part of the alleged Christian.

Q2. Do you have the impression that by virtue of being a Christian who spreads God's teachings against sin, the Christian believes that they are holier than thou and without sin?

Yes, in many cases they do display the "holier-than-thou" attitude. They do acknowledge that they are sinners, but with the "That's okay, I'm still better than you because I'm forgiven" attitude.

Q3. If a Christian sins, in your eyes, does this discredit them from answering their call to spread the Word of God concerning sin, forgiveness and salvation through Jesus Christ?

It depends on the situation and the sin. Do they keep repeating the same sins over and over again, with the idea that they will be forgiven over and over again? Is it a one-time sin that they are truly humiliated by and repentent for, and for which they have paid the price for having committed? And what about the sin of "spiritual rape" - forcing one's beliefs on others? Does the Christian who is spreading the word remember to kick the dust from their feet and move on when their audience tires of hearing it? All of these are factors when determining how seriously the rest of the world will take individual Christians.



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www.indigenousrocks.com

 

Searcher,

Upon coming to this page today, I see that you have made a number of posts. Thank you. While I have only glanced at them as of yet, I noticed that you seem to think that this thread was directed at you or something that you said. I will go back and read your posts in detail but, first, I wanted you to be assured that I was not thinking of you or anything that you said when I started this thread. In fact, the example was not directed at anyone or based on anyone's specific statements or posts.

I hope this clears some things up!

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Yesterday's history. Tomorrow's a mystery. Today is a "gift." That's why we call it "the present."
What will you do with your gift of today?

 

frank t,

I misread your post in the string "The Survival Of The Judeo/Christian Religion". I am so very very sorry. Please, forgive me. Welcome to exosci Brother!!!

Bring more Christians,
ISDAMan

 

TS,

Thank you for your reply. This was the statement you made at the beginning of this thread:

The original conversation was between Lori, Flash and myself, where Flash first implied that MLK was an adulterer, and I responded mostly by cracking up over her remark. Then Lori asked if I could clarify the remark Flash had made, which I did. I went on to post the webpage address where the Christian woman argued that MLK was not a true Christian (her argument was completely unrelated to adultery, which wasn't even mentioned on her webpage), and I stated that Christians should be careful about counting MLK among their ranks.

Although adultery is not the issue here, I feel that the question of MLK's Christianity is at least part of the issue here, and I believe that the original conversation between Flash, Lori and myself is what prompted this thread. That is the reason I responded in the manner I did - I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions about why MLK's Christianity was in question.

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www.indigenousrocks.com

 

Sorry to go off topic here, gang, but I don't want to ignore some of the off-topic questions.

tab':

Yes, tab, there is a chance for everyone and yes, God can take into account a person's psyche.

God will judge us in accordance with our exercise of our gift of free-will. If a person loses their "free-will" at some point in their life they will be judged in accordance with their exercise of free-will prior to losing it.

By the way, as sick as we all might think Mr. Jeffrey was, during interviews in prison he stated that he knew right from wrong all along, turned his back on God, and decided to give into the evil urges and commit his horrible acts anyway. As far as I could tell, the way he explained it, his free-will was still in tact. Only God knows for sure.

This situation has been addressed before: If a person is born without free-will due to disease or illness, they are like infants who were never introduced to Jesus Christ and, therefore, never had the opportunity to be baptized in the Spirit of Jesus. It is my understanding that such individuals will not be judged... They will go into what is commonly referred to as limbo, a natural state of happiness but separated from God.

No, personally, I do not think that we all suffer from some kind of warped psyche. If we do, however, then it comes down to whether or not we have the ability to exercise our gift of free-will.




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Yesterday's history. Tomorrow's a mystery. Today is a "gift." That's why we call it "the present."
What will you do with your gift of today?