Are we made in God's image?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by James R, Apr 23, 2020.

  1. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Tell me, what evidence is there for any god.
    We have plenty of evidence for Abiogenisis and chemistry resulting in life forms over 13.83 billion years, or if you like starting from Earth's formation, 4.5 billion years. You simply turn a blind eye to that because it annihilates your deity of choice, and of course the many other deities of many other choices made around the world.

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    Pull the other one Vociferous, it whistles.
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  3. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    OK to make you happy just for a moment let us put it where you see it and we still find the claim still appears most reasonable...if you feel happy saying scientists believe as if belief is somewhat unreasonable that's OK with me because it just seems like an unsucessuful attempt to drag us down to your level...we accuse you of indulging mere belief and realising we have nailed you that drives you to say ..well you guys believe in stuff as well...and dispute repeatedly pointing out the difference between confidence and belief you just can't let it go..go ahead you are acting like a dog with a toy.
    However Billvon gave you enough information for you to be a little more rational yet the opportunity passed you by...
    To elevate yourself higher than a mere critic if you wish to reject an idea why not in doing so offer an alternative than makes more you have an alternative?

    I believe that the religious right heads off funding as they know life in the lab will destroy their house of cards.

    What does that mean? Save me looking it up.

    And good on them for retaining confidence when there is so much that could destroy it..lucky they can fall back to the answer all position of faith...and sure everyone does it ..even I have faith that the universe is eternal and there can be no creator..that will make you happy knowing we are really so much alike.

    I told you the truth and being the truth you can only reject are if nothing else consistent.
    Anyways it seems we have a misunderstanding..let's go thru said at one point that there was much more than scientism or science...didn't you? That what I thought you did didn't you? Then you say there isn't? I thought that is what you said and the two seem at rather than ranting please tell me what you are actually trying to say so there is no confusion rather than spitting the dummy and saying I am lieing..just explain yourself clearly and calmly.

    Can I quote you on the future?

    Again I have told you..I really don't believe anything...

    I have often thought about it but I now think this way it's not up to me to prove god exists or is up to god and so far he does a good job at proving he is an invention of humans who evolves along with them.

    Sorry I was trying the theist approach, some of them, not you, where they will say..well prove god does not exist.
    Why are you so annoyed with chemistry making life?
    Time will tell ... like so many scientific type hypothesis they become established...and it should not be much longer to wait...

    Who said I was pretending?
    So you have reduced the idea to ...its an idea you think it's the best idea? Do you have a reasonable alternative for the start of life?

    I may be away from here for a while for some medical stuff.
    Before I go I should appologise for taking the Mickey out of you...I don't know what it is but I do enjoy doing's not me however but given you give as good as you get I don't feel too bad..have a great day.
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  5. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

    As a child, well back into the last century, I was exposed to different ideologies, theories, precepts, tenets and what have you concerning living in this world.
    I read or heard differing tales of its Origins, its possible or probable destination, outcomes and so on.

    When first coming across the phrase "In His Image", my Uncle Carl opined that it might have simply meant "as he imagined".
    Much like when an artist is given a blank canvas and encouraged to create Xanadu, or Utopia, or Valhalla as they would Imagine it to be.
    Or a Xenobiologist envisioning possible alien life forms "in his image" - as he imagines that they might possibly appear to us.

    I was brought up/raised with the knowledge that the Bible was a book - and like most all books - was open to wide ranging interpretations.

    I find it laughable that supposedly intelligent adults would choose to waste their time arguing like children over such silly trifling and unimportant trivial issues that can not ever and will not ever be truly resolved.

    so..."In His Image"..."As He Imagined"..."According To His Design"...Meh, it is another book, read it or any book you want, and make of it or any other book what you will.

    Do not expect nor force any other person to read any book and only interpret that book in one and only one way.

    That is how real, intelligent, adults live in this world.
    Xelasnave.1947 likes this.
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  7. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

    I never even implied that belief was unreasonable, just for being belief. I said calling belief fact was self-deluded.

    I readily and repeatedly admit mine are beliefs, without anyone accusing me of anything at all. That's intellectual honesty. Why do you feel the need to pretend like anyone's called me out on anything I didn't freely proffer?

    You have yet to give me any difference, other than that you prefer your beliefs and don't seem capable of understanding that others have just as much confidence in their own.

    You don't accept anything that doesn't make more sense to you. And what makes sense to you is tied up in your personal beliefs. Billvon just spun a bunch of speculation, without any evidence of a leap from chemistry to life.

    Really? Even during Obama, when Democrats had both houses of Congress? You're just making excuses.

    The part where you think I said there isn't is where you only read part of a sentence. Learn to read whole sentences and you won't confuse yourself. The whole sentence was:
    Presuming only scientific answers are scientism. You get that I've been arguing against scientism this whole time, don't you? Saying two things I disagree with are the same is pretty damn consistent, wouldn't you agree? Now get your head out of your ass.

    No need. I freely and regularly admit when what I think are my beliefs. Too bad we can't say the same of you, paddo, and billvon.

    Then maybe avoid talking in terms of "must be".

    Who said it was up to you to prove God exists? I certainly didn't.
    As I've told others here, if God proved its existence, you'd have no free will in believing. It would be a fact.

    Yeah, anyone saying "prove me wrong" is intellectually dishonest.
    I'm only annoyed with people claiming speculation as fact, and there being no evidence that chemistry alone can become life.
    Your faith in science is stronger than mine in God. I don't expect God to answer my questions for me.

    It's trivial that everyone thinks their own beliefs more compelling. That's why they hold them. Maybe you actually don't realize that others deem their own beliefs just as compelling as you find yours.
  8. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    Good to know

    Mean while

    I know I posted at your leisure but it seems to have been interpreted as "will just ignore"

    Would that be a fair interpretation?

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  9. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

  10. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    My appointment is tomorrow??? There you go add to my list of problems that I don't even know what day it is.

    And I agree calling a belief a fact is somewhat self deluded...

    OK to be clear irrespective of what you call abiogenesis, fact, belief, speculative, etc there can be no other explanation even if you want to have God stirring the pot and adding the ingredients anything short of that I expect you could call magic.

    What's wrong with that?

    He pointed out specifics and you ignore them. You are lucky to have him help you.

    I am not upsetting you am I ..sometimes I get the impression I irritate you but I guess that's probably just me..over sensitive.
    But such talk ... really...

    Why not could say it if you tried.

    You are just angry because we deal in facts and levels of confidence. At least your gorilla is laughing.

    OK I will go to " almost certainly" ..happy?

    That makes sense and does not all at the same time.

    That's what annoys me about religion in general...particularly the Christian resurrection thing...

    There is enough so far to make scientists think chemistry alone can become life...I ask why is that so improbable? Why do you have so little faith that they know what they are talking about?

    I give many times have I pointed out my general sceptism with the Big Bang , or my preference for the Steady State model that has been thrown faith in science goes against the best scientific model of cosmology...that is pretty flimsy faith ...oh I get it your belief in God is pretty flimsy also...I get it.
    You must be near ready to go atheist. Do you think the Big Bang Theory is a fact?


    You still have not answered my question as to your belief that there can be life on other planets or Moons etc.

    Given that chemistry is everywhere you could think life will be everywhere but as you think opposite I guess you may think life won't be found anywhere else...there was life on the Moon at some point.

  11. paddoboy Valued Senior Member


    Nup, that's just a typical cop out answer to avoid facing that terrible possibilty that your deity is superfluous at best and defunct at worst.
    If there is only scientific answers available, that because science is a far ranging, far reaching possible learning and knowledge of the whole universe back to around .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds after the evolution of space and time, henceforth known as spacetime.
    Obviously that leaves a real tight fit for your god of the gaps, and just as obviously, highly unlikely, as we know that science is working on that remote epoch also
    If you drop your baggage, the natural wonders of the universe will be revealed....naturally.

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  12. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    As expected

    Engage Iggy

    dumbest man on earth likes this.
  13. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

    Thank You...profusely!!!
  14. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

    I don't call it magic. If God created everything, everything is either all natural or all supernatural. And if everything is one, there is no other. So there can't be both the natural and the supernatural (other than natural). And trying to differentiate the two is purely arbitrary. Saying God created the universe supernaturally and then at some arbitrary point, for whatever reason, things were suddenly natural is incoherent. Same goes for abiogenesis. God creating the chemistry and forming from it something that could not otherwise form is arbitrary to describe as something other than everything else God creates. Personally, I think it's all natural. Just not all scientifically knowable.

    Absolutely nothing....until you ask for an alternative tailored to your personal beliefs. You believe as you do because you see no alternative. Makes asking for one pointless.

    He pointed out a lot of non-living biomolecules and didn't offer a single thing to connect the dots to living organisms. Billvon actually said "life is chemistry". That's abjectly stupid.

    You should probably avoid the internet if that too much for you.

    No, you really don't.

    Religion tends to talk about "truths", not facts.

    Scientists speculate a lot of things they can't show evidence for. 21 dimensions, multiverse, abiogenesis, FTL, etc.. They also tend to be atheists, so motivated reasoning is at play.

    Just until you quit talking about abiogenesis, and other speculation, as fact.
    All available evidence points to a Big Bang.

    Where did you ask that? Must have missed it.
    I seriously doubt there is any but maybe microbial/bacterial life elsewhere.

    Yes, we deposited it there.
  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    I wish I could answer that clearer but I can' let me just say simply Bullshit!
    You say you know science? Speculation is part of science..speculate, hypothesise, experiment/test...repeat...theory.
    Of course your one big obvious though expected error is Abiogenisis. That is fact and the only scientific answer, while possible falsification as far as the methodology is concerned. And of course the Father of the BB was aJesuit Priest, George LaMaitre.
    Wow!!! such a vehement, loud and forceful threat!!! just as your handle defines.
    At least you have that much right. It wasn't a BB though, simply an evolution of space and time.
    And you, me, Alex and everyone evolved from such microbial and bacterial life.
    Intelligent ETL?? Not sure, I'm inclined to say yes, but no evidence yet of any life, other then the possibility of it happening due to the stuff of life being found everywhere.
  16. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    That is interesting.
    I really do not see why...what if I am presented with an alternative that makes more sense?
    I don't see why .. his statement would be great for me he debate section.
    I have managed to recover after much sobbing...I find it somewhat satisfying that you need to resort to such, well any insult really, I find satisfying as I take it that your tank is empty. It just means my sillyness works rather well.
    Do too.
    Sure it does. Your comment is meaningless in any is curious you see a difference between facts and truths...JC died and back up again after three days..truth or fact???
    Got to get up early to trap you it seems.

  17. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

    And what, in this whole conversation, would lead you expect you'd accept any alternative I'd offer? You've already repeatedly told me what you think of it. Hence it's pointless for you to ask me for an alternative that would make sense to you.

    It's simply not factual.

    I'm sure that presumption is very self-satisfying.

    Considering facts can be supported with evidence and there is no physical evidence for resurrection, that would be a truth to those who espouse it. Truths are things that can be come by through other means than physical evidence, like logic, reason, revelation, epiphany, etc..
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    I did not mention accepting it ..I was interested if it made more sense...

    The point for me is that I am interested in how other humans think particularly what they believe. So far I have found your replies interesting, I prefer a sensible discussion and it's only when you play up that I take the Mickey out of you.
    Sure you can exhibit a distasteful arrogance but that does not mean I need disrespect your beliefs when you present them at my request.
    I think what he said is reasonable what part do you feel is not factual...It fits what I have read..the replication etc.
    You seem to have closed your mind to the know like me with gods believing they are all human invention.

    Well you come over a certain way that has one feeling like you need to be pulled up so that thing creeps know what I mean...anyways I just feel when someone spits the dummy they lose which means I win...doesn't mean I am smart just means they are stupid...and I am not trying to be disrespectful I am just saying you are the master of your own defeat and me claiming credit is probably a little presumptuous.
    A dummy spit just is not cool nor the act of a's the badge of a loser is what I am trying to say and so much less than what I expect from you a seemingly well educated well spoken person one who presumably seeks enlightenment via a decent existence tied to scriptures and their teachings.
    And then in this situation I like to give the opportunity for the other person to back down and see if they have the strength of character to apologize given they have had time to consider that their behaviour may be un cool, or not that of a gentleman or indeed as I found earlier when one has been unintentionally offensive...or in your case intentionally offensive..and although an appology is acceptable it becomes more satisfying not receiving one thereby confirming the lack of character you suspected is the way of it.
    How is that for a start. You like being intellectually honest yet you seem to enjoy insulting folk which is a strange conflict of virtue...
    Thanks for that. I had not thought of things that way. I am too simple at times and miss the finer points and so I say sincerely thank you for presenting your take on the difference. I have been far to casual.
  19. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

    From chemistry to even the simplest living organism has not been shown to be factual, regardless of how plausible you find it.
    Not closed minded at all, abiogenesis is one of the things that makes my God hypothesis falsifiable. I just suspect that you'll be waiting on that proof like Christians waiting for the return of Christ.

    Never claimed to be especially virtuous, nor nice. Just intellectually rigorous.
  20. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    Said to paddoboy and now to yourself

    Think you are being Sea-lioned

    Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment which consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity.[1][2][3][4] It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate".[5]

    See Word of the day thread

    Found it today

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  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Hmmmm sounds fun.

    But I find it hard to believe a man who has a laughing gorilla as his avatar and agrees with most things I say could be the sort of troll you point to...maybe a laughing gorilla troll ..hey a new thing..oops probably just started him on his trip to fame and recognition.

    He is ok just has different views is all.

    You can't blame him..I am probably everything he hates, Athiest, leftist capitalist, aggressive pacifist, adorable, humble and a champion for scientism.

    The trouble is because I have been so busy in the real world I find myself resting a great deal .the new observatory is much more work than I expected...building a concrete base for the pier is just so much effort for me..benches, another floor, and still have not d3cided for sure which set I am back to 16 inch which is crazy ...but I can set so relatively cheap.... Anyways I need to rest and get my mind off all of it ..I am in a spin with so much planning ... that's why I engage folk like our three amigos no effort required, leads my head off serious stuff...because it's about religion you don't need evidence or links and really you get the same arguement and it's so easy to win...or rather just help them lose.
    You can use strawmen cause they rarely offer a position.
    And I believe all people are decent and so many are just misunderstood and perhaps lonely so I try and help bring them out of their shells as it were...then there is the opportunity to waffle on about nothing..reminds me of my legal days.

    How are you going?

  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    You need to be a little more positive..hopeful perhaps..just think of all the things folk thought were impossible but are with us could never look...motor cars..some thought if a human went faster than 40 miles an hour they would die..something like dont want to be one of those " it will never happen" guys do you?

    I like Chemistry I was good at it..when 11 years old could pass leaving certificate chemistry know how if a kid likes something they lap it up... sure this final thing, lets call it life force, seems something beyond us just like flying but our bodies function via chemical reaction and so that hints at its importance and the possibility that life is merely a chemical reaction.

    Perhaps you could show how that works...and if it does ring up The Athieist you know that show?...and man could you have some fun...I would like to see confident are you..come on make a full case and see if the clever ones here can pull it apart.

    Hardley the same thing but I know what you mean.. I don't believe the JC thing ..if you want belief in something or nil you win nailed me with a belief.

    But I will say just taking the complexity of a single cell and all that goes on just there is mind boggling even for a chap like me who is at ease with scientism.
    This complexity could have one thinking that you would need some really powerful intelligence to comprehend it or say design and produce it...that's a thought..but you still need proof.
    So what happens with your God..has he any plans to visit, intervene or flood the place?

    And never aspired to be virtuous?

    It's ironic really, here is you with your very own God and no aspirations to be virtuous and here is me no God and being virtuous is most all I think's it's own reward as you know you try your best to be decent you can be proud of know high self me high self esteem is success.
    Folk who don't have it are usually lossers.

    Again we are opposite here..I love to be nice, I love being kind to people and animals even insects..when you are nice and kind everything works and you want for nothing.

    Hmmmm maybe in your view..if so you can present your God theory being falsifiable and all...let's see how you manage that.

    And yet still can't see any hope for chemistry making think excluding it is flash making it work would be flasher.

    Anyways you don't see a problem with being offensive which is odd given your earlier performance today...I am not sure how you get along with folk in the real world..are they frightened of you or do you get pushed around.

    Look forward to your God theory.

  23. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

    would Posts #210 and #245 fit the definition?

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