Arguments for the soul's existence...

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by one_raven, May 11, 2006.

  1. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    20,337
    amazing vid..thanks...and your point being?
    of course there are two...

    in fact you don't even have to have two heads to have two souls sharing the one body...can do with just one body and even more than one soul or at least a reflection of souls.

    The point being is that for example people suffering chronic psychosis, multiple personality disorders, socia pathy and a few other nasties all demonstrate multiple souls sharing the one body.

    Keeping in mind that science has yet to fathom the pathology of psychosis or other nasty mental issues and can only offer treatments that sedate the persons fear based imaginings.
    but top video thanks...they are amazing girls ...both of them...
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2009
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  3. JesseLeigh Registered Member

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    Anything for a fellow author.

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    The 'Soul' doesn't survive death, only the spirit does. The soul is capable of dying while the spirit is not.

    The fact that ninety-five per cent of the population of the planet, including 5% of atheists and/or agnostics, inherently believes that a part of them continues on after death ought to compel one to objectively take a good look at the phenomenon.

    We can prove scientifically that energy never dissipates or expires, but merely changes form, ergo the life-force, the electrical impulses that permit us to live have to go somewhere.

    Personally, I believe humans possess a spirit and a soul (soul = body+ cognizant ability, heart/mind and so on), and that after death the spirit goes back to the Source, which, in my understanding, is God.

    Objectively, we cannot PROVE the existence or non-existence of a spirit because it isn't a biological, researchable, or definable entity. I can *feel* both my own spirit and The Holy Spirit within me. I cannot, however, prove to another what is experiential in me. I can tell you that I know the two exist (not believe, but know), but I cannot communicate that knowledge to someone who has not experienced the presence of either one. That billions of others, regardless of the expression of their faith, their intelligence quotient, or their level of education, have similar experiential knowledge to my own, again would suggest, objectively, that the 5% who have had no such experience, investigate why they don't, or why others do - an arbitrary distinction.

    Why are many of us, most notably indigenous or native people, 'tuned in' to kinetic energy while others have so such ability or 'sense'? I have that 'sense', and because I do, there are many things in life I can explain, some of which are not at odds with our present, limited, scientific understanding. That the intangible *can* be scientifically explained at all, opens the door to the inevitable conclusion that *all* intangible phenomenon can be explained, but that we lack the science/knowledge (the word 'science' comes from the Latin word 'scientia,' which simply means 'knowledge') to dive deep enough into the well to do so at the present time.

    Assuming a global population of 7 billion, what we presently have is 6.65 billion people on the planet emphatically saying 'I know' when it comes to experiencing the human spirit, and 350 million people saying 'Yeah, but HOW do you know'?

    C.S. Lewis, a former atheist who became a believer, did so because he felt that the innate sense of right and wrong in him, common throughout healthy humankind (i.e. those who are not sociopathic or otherwise brain damaged), could not exist unless an intelligence had put it there. The sense of right and wrong 'lives' in our conscience (as opposed to our consciousness), the part of us through which our spirit communicates with The Holy Spirit. Healthy humans all instinctively (inherently) know right from wrong. Since this is a universal phenomenon it is reasonable to say that all healthy humans have a conscience. If we can agree on this point then it follows that all humans also possess a spirit, whether they are aware of its presence or not.

    A Chinese fellow missionary once told me that one of his students referred to his conscience as 'The resident Boss.' (As in, 'Resident Boss say no, I must not do that.') I have yet to hear of a better description of The Holy Spirit's interactive effect on the human spirit in matters of conscience. Obviously some intelligence, outside of the fellow himself, was *directing* his conscience. How? My answer would be through the Holy Spirit prompting his own spirit, the part of him which will survive death and return to the Source (God) to await resurrection - or as some believe, reincarnation.

    I hope my humble offering provides you with some food for thought.

    Shalom Aleichem - Jesse.
     
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  5. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Jesse, just to pick a few holes...
    No one inherently believes anything, as you seem to think. Most people initially believe what their parents tell them to believe - and we do so through trust of our parents. Most accept these things (Santa, God etc) until such time as we are willing and able to question them. Since Santa is a lot easier to dismiss than God, this generally goes first, along with the Tooth Fairy, Leprechauns etc.
    So unless I misunderstand your use of the word "inherently", you are mistaken. What you really mean is that 95% of the world's population continue have not reached a point where they are both willing and able to question what they have been taught.

    Next - your arguments / ideas read as though you think God = the Source = the Universe. But you seem to suggest that we retain identity throughout? For if we don't, and our "spirit"/energy merely dissipates without retaining a pattern with which to operate... how is this different to saying that we merely obey the laws of Physics... E=mc^2 etc? There is then no purpose in defining something as God, or as the Spirit if you're not implying something more than just energy. So what is it? Do we retain a pattern in the Source after death?

    Picking up on C.S.Lewis is next to irrelevant, unfortunately. It is one person who has gone from atheism to belief. But you ignore everyone who has gone from belief to atheism. You are making the logical fallacy of an appeal to authority. C.S.Lewis can be just as wrong as everyone else. He was not a neuroscientist, a biologist etc to be able to dismiss all other more rational conclusions to his thoughts.

    Next, your argument "healthy humans have conscience = have spirit whether they know or not" is poor. You are starting with the assumption of correctness on your part, and then begging the question. "Holy Spirit gives us X. Since we all display X, we must all have the Holy Spirit". Very poor argument - especially when there is nothing to support the assumptions you make other than your confidence.

    You are quite correct, though, in saying that your entire belief is based only on what you experience, and that you are unable to provide proof.
    For me, the more rational explanation is that it all revolves around the little-black-box inside our heads - called the brain - and its vastly complex interconnectedness. All the feelings you have are just feedback loops, processors etc working away until they arrive at a "solution" that puts you at ease, enabling you to do other things.
    If you think of the brain as a computer... then sometimes it comes across ideas / concepts it "can't compute"... so it makes leaps and provides a solution that provides the best fit for the rest of the brain to accept and move on. Unfortunately none of this provides any evidence that the fit is correct or not.

    You are also right that we can not prove the existence or non-existence of your "spirit" as you describe it.
    But the irrational thing to do would be to assume it exists nonetheless.
     
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  7. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

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    The argument is sound (even if it sounds goofy - which is in the eyes of the beholder).

    If there is no physical reason why my body is mine and not anyone elses, then doesn't that account for some non-physical entity?

    The possible argument "because it is your body" doesn't count if there is no physical reason why it is my body and not anyone elses.

    Answer me this:

    Is it possible that I could have been somebody else?

    If not; why not?

    Why couldn't I be your senses? So to speak. (because yours are taken?)
     
  8. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    4,207
    Actually energy is neither created nor destroyed. It always dissapates (entropy).


    "Life-force" isn't a form of energy. It is just how living things are organized while they live and that organization is lost when they die. Their energy continues to dissapate without being replenished until they achieve equilibrium with their surroundings and the body begins to decompose.

    Your electrical impulses aren't regenerated and never fire again.
     
  9. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    33,264
    There's no PROOF that a "soul" exists. When that can be proven as a FACT then I will think about having such. Until then THERE's NO SOUL.
     
  10. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    I would say that "you" are the totality of that part of your physical body that is in some way connected to the brain - along with every emergent property that the complexity of the brain gives rise to.

    How, then, would you anticipate "you" being anyone other than you, given what "you" is.
     
  11. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Not really, you've only projected your ignorance of the world around you and the typical fallacious assertions theists spout coupled with an egotistical "I am special" claim, demonstrating little more than personal delusions.

    It's been done before, humbly offered.
     
  12. azriel Registered Member

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    existance of the soul

    First,it's important to understand what the soul is. In a nutshell your soul is your intellect (that which seperates you from the common Babboon).

    Just like your spirit (the life source) your soul is eternal, it can neither be created nor destroyed.

    The soul is your free will and the spirit is what keeps your heart beating.

    they are as interdependant as water and oxygen.

    You people don't know shit do you?
     
  13. azriel Registered Member

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    49
    If you cannot show proof that your body contains the Holy Spirit, then the Holy spirit isn't there. Going to a church doesn't make you a servant of Almighty God anymore than going to a concert will make you a rock star.

    God said that you will die and spend all of eternity in the darkness of the wicked.

    If you don't believe me, read Matthew 8 and Thessalonians 2
     
  14. azriel Registered Member

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    49
    existance of the soul

    First,it's important to understand what the soul is. In a nutshell your soul is your intellect (that which seperates you from the common Babboon).

    Just like your spirit (the life source) your soul is eternal, it can neither be created nor destroyed.

    The soul is your free will and the spirit is what keeps your heart beating.

    they are as interdependant as water and oxygen.

    You people don't know shit do you?
     
  15. wizard Registered Senior Member

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    131
    better to not know shit then to know bullshit

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    your idea of a soul is unscientific. until someone can come up with one that is, this is going to be a debate over opinions
     
  16. azriel Registered Member

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    49
    so then why does the human body lose 2.6 pounds, immediately upon death?

    Scientifically speaking, I assert that the spirit has departed and taken the soul with it
     
  17. wizard Registered Senior Member

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    maybe cause you lose poo and pee
     
  18. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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  19. azriel Registered Member

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    This is the kind of response that I would expect from someone of zero intelligence
     
  20. swivel Sci-Fi Author Valued Senior Member

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    Because it doesn't! You are just making stuff up.
     
  21. azriel Registered Member

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    I didn't make it up, some scientist made it up (if it isn't true)
     
  22. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    The most important thing to realize is that you are just making shit up. This doesn't even follow xtian doctrine, so you get one point for originality.

    It doesn't.
     
  23. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    13,406
    Really?
    What scientist would that be?
     

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