Arizona Immigration Law

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by madanthonywayne, Apr 26, 2010.

  1. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    I agree, it will be an interesting experiment.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,391
    So lately all the teabag talking heads have been bloviating about Arizona's "right to defend its borders."

    Which gave me an idea: what about the rights of all of the states that border Arizona to defend our borders against Arizona?

    I'd like to see CA, NV, UT, NM (and, heck, CO) all close their borders to residents of Arizona. Be interesting to see how appealling they find the prospect of Fortress Arizona if they actually have to live with it themselves.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,461
    For comparison, here's Mexico's law:
    Article 67 of Mexico's Population Law says, "Authorities, whether federal, state or municipal ... are required to demand that foreigners prove their legal presence in the country, before attending to any issues."
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100429/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_mexico_migrants_1
    Seems pretty hypocritical of them to bitch about Arizona's law.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,391
    And it seems pretty hypocritical of you to support it: if Mexico sucks so much, why would we want Arizona copying its laws?
     
  8. sifreak21 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,671
    guy i work with just got married to a mexican woman.. they went down to see her family on the way back she was stopped becasue she didnt have a passport.. she had some thing thats likea SSN. got her out of the states as they were flying.. but anyway she went to get her passport and got denied because she looked to "white" to be a mexican
     
  9. superstring01 Moderator

    Messages:
    12,110
    Mexico "sucking" has little to do with it's enforcement of immigration laws rather it's because of a culture that openly accepts criminal corruption at every level of government. AZ protecting its borders from hordes of illegal immigrants is just good common sense. . . common sense which is widely accepted in most parts of the world and by most Americans.

    ~String
     
  10. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,226
    Not really, seeing as how most of the ones bitching about it moved out of Mexico...
     
  11. sly1 Heartless Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    692
    From my understanding arizona is only taking action against people who have commited a crime by being in their state illegaly....how is CA,NV,UT,NM and CO closing their borders to Arizona legal residents even close to what arizona is doing?

    Why is it so wrong for arizona to search for and prosecute people who have commited a crime by being there illegaly? That is what law enforcement is and does regardless of race. The problem is the FACT that the majority of people commiting a immigration crime in arizona are in fact from MEXICO..

    Racial profiling cracks me up because its not PC but its actually part of normal criminal process.

    Example:

    Lets say an old lady gets robbed and calls the police saying that the man ran away. Now YOU are the police and you have to find this guy

    ....what questions might you ask her so you can catch him? Height, clothing, and ya obviously COLOR OF SKIN! which consiquently means anyone sharing that description in the area of the crime is going to be a suspect.

    This isnt wrong its a common sense approach to finding criminials trying to avoid the law.

    IF: russia was south of the US and we found alot of white dudes speaking russian only or broken english in russian accents in arizona toting around russian flags this country would not only shit itself for fear of invasion but would probably be taking this a hell of alot more seriously in terms of national security.

    IF: it was any ARAB/MUSLIM nation south of the us toting around iraqi flags or what have you I GUARENTEE you this would be a national security issue of the highest priority and more states than arizona would be enforcing their laws rigerously.

    This isn't a racial issue its a demographic issue.
     
  12. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,391
    That isn't racial profiling.
     
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,389
    (Insert Title Here)

    As Quadraphonics noted, this isn't racial profiling.

    Racial profiling is stopping a car to check the driver because he is black. Or investigating every black man you can find when the incident report says the suspect is black. Or, as Leonard Pitts, Jr. explained during the Henry Louis Gates affair last year:

    And if Gates looked like a lawbreaker to James Crowley, well, to me he looks like former Lakers star Jamaal Wilkes, pulled over because the tags on his car were "about to" expire, like clean-shaven 6'4" businessman Earl Graves Jr. detained by police searching for a mustachioed 5'10" suspect, like Amadou Diallo, executed while reaching for his wallet.

    And like me, with hands up and a rifle trained on my chest by an officer who later claimed he stopped me in that predominantly-white neighborhood for a traffic violation.

    Racial profiling is a presumption of guilt associated with skin color and ethnicity.

    So, having cleared that up, we might revisit an issue I've noted before:

    What I don't get about this law is what constitutes actionable cause?

    In 2007, without such a law to support them, California authorities deported an American citizen. What was so disturbing about what our topic poster classified as a mere bureaucratic screw up is that, in that incident, ICE reminded that they "only processes persons for removal when all available credible evidence suggests the person is an alien". Indeed, ICE claimed that it "has no reason to believe that it improperly removed Pedro Guzman".

    Except that he was an American citizen. Or, as I put it then, "In other words, no credible evidence at all is enough credible evidence to deport a man."

    So what is reasonable cause for investigation? Looks hispanic, speaks Spanish? I mean, really, what? Will Arizona authorities be nearly so suspicious of British people who might be in the country illegally?

    I think one of the things this law's supporters need to establish is that they recognize people's legitimate concerns about enforcement, and help people understand how those issues are addressed.​

    I'm still waiting for an Arizona advocate to answer these issues. I suspect I'll be waiting for a long, long time. Please prove me wrong, and address those issues.

    I mean, I keep inquiring, and nobody really wants to try to answer.

    If there's an answer on the record that I've missed, point me to it.

    C'mon ... please? Humor me?
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Pitts Jr., Leonard. "Looking but not seeing". The Miami Herald. July 26, 2009. MiamiHerald.com May 19, 2010. http://www.miamiherald.com/2009/07/25/1156989/looking-but-not-seeing.html
     
  14. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,391
    By now the silence on that point is deafening, and I think you know as well as I do that no explicit answer is forthcoming.

    Which is to say that it's now a waiting game: eventually, this question is going to come up for real (meaning, in a court of law) and we'll see how it's all played out at that point.

    And to that: who really knows? It's possible that the Arizona executive branch is sufficiently on edge about the obvious pitfalls here to keep enforcement extremely careful. If it turns out that the cops don't ever check this stuff except in situations where they would be checking ID anyway, then it won't really amount to anything more than a pretext for election-year posturing.

    But if they actually pursue what seems to be the intent of this law, it's going to be a tragicomic clusterfuck. I can only hope that various civil liberties groups and interested journalists are converging on Arizona as we speak.
     
  15. sly1 Heartless Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    692
    I agree its NOT racial profiling and NEITHER is this AZ LAW!

    I used the example to show the legitimacy of the crime and description of suspect commiting the crime. The PC portion of the issue has people denying obvious portions of the situation that most of the illegal immigrants in this country are from mexico...most of the people in mexico speak spanish and are of a darker complexion.

    Now here is where I think people get confused and PARANOID about the racial part of the issue. Does anyone honestly think the AZ police are going to go around wasting their time harrasing legal, english speaking, hispanic americans? Im betting not.

    A big indicator and red flag is broken english with heavy spanish accent or ability to speak no english at which is a dead ringer for "probable cause" which is all law enforcement needs to question. If you cannot read/write and speak english you cannot leagaly go about entering this country. The test is in english...so how the hell can you pass a test you cannot read? Aside of that its a stated requirement.

    Additional Citizenship Requirements Include:
    A period of continuous residence and physical presence in the United States
    The ability to read, write and speak English
    Good moral character
    Knowledge of the principles of the U.S. Constitution
    Favorable disposition towards the United States which doesn't include kicking kids out of school for wearing american flagged T-shirts on Cinco De Mayo a freaking holiday that has absolutely nothing to do with the United States.
    Ability to pass the United States Citizenship Test (which requires knowing how to read/write english)
     
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,389
    Hello? Is there anybody out there?

    To reiterate, yet again:

    What I don't get about this law is what constitutes actionable cause?

    In 2007, without such a law to support them, California authorities deported an American citizen. What was so disturbing about what our topic poster classified as a mere bureaucratic screw up is that, in that incident, ICE reminded that they "only processes persons for removal when all available credible evidence suggests the person is an alien". Indeed, ICE claimed that it "has no reason to believe that it improperly removed Pedro Guzman".

    Except that he was an American citizen. Or, as I put it then, "In other words, no credible evidence at all is enough credible evidence to deport a man."

    So what is reasonable cause for investigation? Looks hispanic, speaks Spanish? I mean, really, what? Will Arizona authorities be nearly so suspicious of British people who might be in the country illegally?

    I think one of the things this law's supporters need to establish is that they recognize people's legitimate concerns about enforcement, and help people understand how those issues are addressed.​

    And as much respect as I have for our neighbor Quadraphonics, I am genuinely hoping that one of Arizona's advocates will prove him wrong:

    "By now the silence on that point is deafening, and I think you know as well as I do that no explicit answer is forthcoming. "​

    I would even go so far as to suggest he would appreciate being proven wrong. Because no matter how many times I raise the issue, the best it seems I can hope for is—

    "I agree its NOT racial profiling and NEITHER is this AZ LAW!"​

    —petulant, insistent evasion.

    See, the thing is, Sly1, that the question I'm asking strikes at the heart of people's disagreement about whether or not the Arizona law is, encourages, or mandates racial and ethnic profiling.

    So, to go through it point by point:

    The Question: So what is reasonable cause for investigation?

    The Problem Begging the Question: In 2007, without such a law to support them, California authorities deported an American citizen .... In other words, no credible evidence at all is enough credible evidence to deport a man .... Will Arizona authorities be nearly so suspicious of British people who might be in the country illegally?

    The Underlying Theme of the Question: I think one of the things this law's supporters need to establish is that they recognize people's legitimate concerns about enforcement, and help people understand how those issues are addressed.

    It would be very easy for Arizona's supporters in this issue to put objections to rest by addressing those issues in relation to racial and ethnic profiling.

    As our neighbor suggests, though, the silence on that point is deafening.
     
  17. p1ut0nium Registered Member

    Messages:
    1
    Don't be ridiculous. Federal law already requires all resident aliens—i.e. green card holders—to carry their identification papers on them at all times. Every time you are pulled over by law enforcement in this country, what is the first thing you are asked for?

    License and registration please.

    You do realize that, technically, a valid license can only be obtained by a legal citizen of the U.S. How is asking for legal immigration paperwork any different than asking for a license? No racial profiling here. Hell, over 30% of AZ is Hispanic! Double that of the entire U.S. That's about 1 in ever 3 people. And many of the police are Hispanic! I lived there for a year, in a little town called Queen Creek outside of Phoenix. It's a beautiful state that I hope to go back to someday, and very friendly people.

    This AZ law does nothing more than finally allow AZ law enforcement to enforce said federal law. Get a grip.

    I may not agree with the immigration laws. In fact, I pray for the day when all borders will be gone, and no man has to carry any form of identification. A day when all men are truly free, but until that day comes, I respectfully obey the law, and hope everyone else does the same.

    Finally, if you live in AZ, and don't like the law, you can always take political action to change it. Otherwise, who cares what you think? AZ has the right to make its own laws, as a sovereign state.

    All I want to know is - if you break a law, should you be punished? Answer me that question. Racial profiling is going to happen whether this law exists or not. It's a problem far deeper than any law. It's a problem with human beings being petty. Do you really think they need words on paper to give them an excuse to racially profile? If they're the type to racially profile, they're going to do it whether you like it or not. Welcome to earth. Corruption is rampant in all level of government and law enforcement. Regardless, coming to another country illegally shares at least one thing in common with robbing a bank, and every other crime. It's against the law. And if you've broken the law, law enforcement has every right to come after you. P E R I O D.

    My final question to everyone is - does AZ want legal immigrants out? No? Then how is this a racist issue?
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2010
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,389
    The underlying question (again)

    I, too, look forward to the day when we're done with borders, but don't expect to see it in my lifetime. However—

    —the problem people are having with that sort of argument is the same question I keep asking over and over and over again—

    What I don't get about this law is what constitutes actionable cause?

    In 2007, without such a law to support them, California authorities deported an American citizen. What was so disturbing about what our topic poster classified as a mere bureaucratic screw up is that, in that incident, ICE reminded that they "only processes persons for removal when all available credible evidence suggests the person is an alien". Indeed, ICE claimed that it "has no reason to believe that it improperly removed Pedro Guzman".

    Except that he was an American citizen. Or, as I put it then, "In other words, no credible evidence at all is enough credible evidence to deport a man."

    So what is reasonable cause for investigation? Looks hispanic, speaks Spanish? I mean, really, what? Will Arizona authorities be nearly so suspicious of British people who might be in the country illegally?

    I think one of the things this law's supporters need to establish is that they recognize people's legitimate concerns about enforcement, and help people understand how those issues are addressed.​

    —and have yet to get an answer to.

    People are charging racial and ethnic profiling because they don't see how this law is going to work without it. As you point out, Arizona has a large hispanic population. What are the criteria for inquiring whether one is legal or not? And will those same criteria be applied to British or Canadian people vacationing or working in Arizona? And what criteria will justify those inquiries? As the opponents of the law might wonder, will an officer inquire about white person's status because they say, "aboot" instead of "about"? "Lorry" instead of "truck"?
     
  19. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,391
    That's not true. Most places will issue driver's licenses without checking immigration/citizenship status - and many states knowingly issue driver's licenses to illegal aliens. They're going to drive regardless, and it's safer if you license them. There used to be a law in CA against issuing licenses to illegal aliens, but one of the first things Schwarzenegger did upon taking office was to annul it.

    Moreover, one does not need a driver's license issued by a US state to legally drive in the United States. One can obtain an international driver's license that is just as valid, can be obtained in almost any country, and does not require any kind of citizenship tests. I think we also accept Canadian driver's licenses as valid - anyone know for sure?

    For that matter, it may well be that Mexican driver's licenses are legal for us on US roads in some/many states. Certainly, I see plenty of cars with Mexico plates that drive up to where I live for shopping trips, days at the beach, etc., and a US license is accepted in Mexico.

    More like 25%, last I heard.
     
  20. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,634
    There is a reasonably detailed legal analysis of the law from professors at the UA and ASU law schools available for download here:

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1617440

    They are soliciting additional thoughts from the legal community, but their read of the law is somewhat similar to mine: racial profiling is not such a big issue as the law is drafted, but federal preemption of the law seems likely. They do hedge that conclusion considerably more than I have by pointing to all the vagaries of federal pre-emption law, and they are right to point them out, but I still think on balance the law is likely to take serious punishment if challenged.

    (Actually, they seem to give some weight and discussion to the point that the law requires racial profiling, a point with which I agree. As they note, however, the statute authorizes racial profiling only to the extent permitted by federal law and the Arizona Constitution. The fact is that federal law does not put an absolute ban on racial profiling, but it sets it up within the limits of the Constitution. Since the Constitution does not give the States any less power to profile than it does the federal government, there is no reason to think that state racial profiling in immigration enforcement will be more likely to be held unconstitutional than its federal counterpart. Since the statute itself limits profiling to no more than what is allowed by federal law, it seems that a mere facial challenge to the statute will fail for that reason.)
     
  21. jhon83 Registered Member

    Messages:
    4
    this is the difference

    this is the main difference between central laws and local laws, there is always confusion between these two bodies. In this case the Arizona immigration law have some difference compare to the USA immigration law ,
     
  22. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,461
    Alabama has passed a law even more strict than Arizona:

    We have an answer to a question posed by Tiassa:
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2012
  23. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    53,966
    That's gotta be good for business.
     

Share This Page