Atheist Realism?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by ronan, May 12, 2008.

  1. ronan Only Consciousness Exists Registered Senior Member

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    From what S.A.M. you cannot infer that she believe in the existence of an objective reality, at least it is not clear enough. S.A.M. do you believe in the existence of an objective reality?
     
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  3. ronan Only Consciousness Exists Registered Senior Member

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    But at least agree that atheist who believe in the existence of a reality (which is defined as the somewhere from which arise what we perceive are in fact the same as the theist who believe in a ineffable encompassing god from which the world of appearance (perceptions) arise.

    In a another thread, I don't remember which one, you said that you share the feeling that a reality must exist because something cannot cone from nothing.

    I don't think there is many atheists who say that there is no reality behind our sense and that the only reality is the mind. It is basically a idealism.
     
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  5. ronan Only Consciousness Exists Registered Senior Member

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    remove this one if you want, there are others

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  7. ronan Only Consciousness Exists Registered Senior Member

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    It does not challenge your view because you talk about a reality behind the senses but for me (you differ about that) S.A.M. did not talk about a reality behind the sense,she said that the reality is her inference, not what from which she get the inference.

    Your view is similar to mine, I believe in a ineffable encompassing reality/god behind our perception. We cannot describe it.
     
  8. Pete It's not rocket surgery Registered Senior Member

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    Reality can't be "known" with absolute certainty by any means. It can only be inferred, like Sam said. And the only possible method of inference through perception is by induction.

    Neither can you infer that I believe in the existence of objective reality from what I said.
    However, it is clear that we both behave as if it exists. Everybody does. There's no other way to behave.

    We can certainly describe reality, if our inductive inferences from our perceptions are reasonably reliable match with reality. If that is the case (and in a general way, it's useless to suppose anything else), then describing our inferences describes reality (with due acknowledgement of the fallibility of both perception and inference, which may be trumped by better perception and/or inference).

    Calling reality "god" does not appear to be useful, unless you are attempting to attach god-like attributes (consciousness, for a start) to reality.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2008
  9. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    Well, yes I can see what you mean with consciousness coming from reality.
    But 'reality/God' does not compute in any way. Not to me at least.
    Are you saying God equals reality ?
     
  10. synthesizer-patel Sweep the leg Johnny! Valued Senior Member

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    Yes he is

    Why?
    Because he says so - at least that's seems to be the best he's come up with so far

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  11. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    Does not compute with your earlier statement that objective reality cannot be accurately perceived.
    Or are you applying different meanings of the word 'reality' simultaneously ?
    May I suggest using objective reality and subjective reality ?
     
  12. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    lol it is typical though..
     
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Thats an assumption that objective reality does exist. If it cannot be perceived, does it exist?

    Of course, if I had decided that only that which I perceive can exist, that would limit the scope of my expectations and explorations. My ideology is that if only that which I can perceive can be proved to exist, then indeed, I must figure out ways to expand the scope of my perceptions. Which requires I believe it is possible that which I cannot perceive must also exist.
     
  14. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    Certainly. What I am, (obviously unsuccessfully), trying to point out to you is that the discussion is completely meaningless. Let me restate it:

    You believe in UFO's. I call UFO's 'god'.. that means you believe in god. The two words used describe something with the exact same properties. Where is the merit in such discussion? Why would I not just call a UFO a UFO and done with it - why call it 'god' which will do nothing but confuse the mass majority of humans on this planet?

    "The universe" works well enough. There is too much cultural baggage associated with "God" - Spidergoat

    "the word god carries with it vast baggage of implications" - Cris

    I am saying the same thing and further stating that I see no worthwhile point within your post. So one guy calls it football and another guy calls it soccer while both describing the exact same thing.. so what? You are seemingly attempting an incredibly daft argument to try and get an atheist to say "yes, I believe in god", (this 'god' having identical properties to something else with a given word). Frankly I find it idiotic and a waste of kilobytes.

    Fine, and when I go to France I will have to make a comparison between what 'chien' relates to in my language - but 'god' and 'reality' are both part of my language. If a French man says 'god' and points at a steaming pile of chien poo, I will consider it a hilarious coincidence, or the man barking! mad because of the defining characteristics, or baggage, of 'god'.

    However, next time someone asks me if I believe in god I shall say yes and point at the UFO in the sky. Let's just hope they follow your understanding. :bugeye:
     
  15. ronan Only Consciousness Exists Registered Senior Member

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    But that is not a perfect method so you have to conclude that you cannot know the reality by this method.

    I only read you

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    you said that for you there is an objective reality

    Induction seem to be reliable about phenomenal reality(the perceptions) because it makes prediction about it but you cannot know it is reliable for reality behind our senses
    Remember you are maybe dreaming

    It is not just calling reality god, It is showing that "god" is for some people (some theist) what for other (some atheist) "reality" is

    it is like showing that "dog" for some people (english speaker) is "chien" for other (french speaker)
     
  16. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, what else would your senses be receiving stimuli from ?
    What do you mean with that first bit ?
     
  17. Pete It's not rocket surgery Registered Senior Member

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    Some people do.
    Pantheism.
     
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    You cannot, remember?:bugeye:

    We believe objective reality exists because as we come up with tools that test the limits of our perception, we realise that there are many things which exist beyond our ability to perceive them. Hence we realise we are limited in our perceptions.
     
  19. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    Then why call it God, why not just reality ?
     
  20. kenworth dude...**** it,lets go bowling Registered Senior Member

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    and what is the kantian view?
     
  21. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    Maybe my IQ dropped severely the last couple of minutes but I have no clue whatsoever what you are on about.
     
  22. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    You cannot perceive objective reality. Or at least I cannot. Maybe you can?

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  23. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    Where did I say I could ?
     

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