Atheists VS Agnostics

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Blacktubby, Oct 1, 1999.

  1. Blacktubby Registered Senior Member

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    I see a great many similarities between many of the arguments used by atheists and by agnostics. I am very interested in seeing a debate between these two groups for a change.

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    To start it off, I would like to ask, where does the divergence between the two philosophies begin?

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    Blacktubby,

    "Reality has a way of catching up with you, the way the ground catches up with an airplane that runs out of fuel."
     
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  3. Oxygen One Hissy Kitty Registered Senior Member

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    An agnostic merely doubts the existence of god where an atheist flat out denies it.

    Anybody else?
     
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  5. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member

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    I've met some "agnostics" -- at least that's what they called themselves -- who had no doubts about existence of a spiritual realm, of an ultimate purpose for everything, etc. However, they denied allegiance to any particular religion, thus claiming that even though they believed in spirituality, transcendence, higher planes of existence or what have you -- they would not accept any narrow or specific account of it or its relationship with the material world. Essentially, they argue against trying to reduce the irreducible. (being an aspiring scientist, and therefore a convinced reductionist, I of course disagree...)

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    I am; therefore I think.

    [This message has been edited by Boris (edited October 01, 1999).]
     
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  7. Plato Registered Senior Member

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    The people you are talking about, Boris would rather be labeled as deïsts ! I am reading a very interesting book for the moment about the history of Western Kosmology. Deïsts believe in some kind of natural religion of which all existing religions. They disagree with all the teachings of the revelation religions however since their sources about kosmology clearly are not in accordance with the observed universe. They believe god created the universe in designing the natural laws and then left the universe on its own governed by these same laws. Voltaire was an exponent of this phylosophy.
    I must say I had some sympathy for them as well but I have problems with the creation bit. Normally I should be a radical nihillist but I'm too optimistic and doubtfull of nature to admid that. I a way I long for death (not that I want to kill myself because I love life to much for that) but in the aswers that I will find there. Even if there are no asnwers given because there is nothing after death, that in itself will give all the anwers I need and will give me peace.
    One could call me a disturbed individual because I just love the inequilibrium of doubt. In stead of settling myself in the relative stability of one phylosophy or an other, I just love to doubt them all !

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    "If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
    Isaac Newton
     
  8. Mierdaan Registered Member

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    Blacktubby-

    Now, I don't pretend to speak for all athiests and/or agnostics, but I believe myself to be representative of at least one of the major philosphical divergences between the two viewpoints. As I've stated in other posts, I refer to myself as an "athiest with agnostic tendancies." What this means is that I can use science to rationalize away all the religious propaganda I've come in contact with, no problem. I've noticed that most of the other proponents of evolution on this board can do the same thing, and there have been numerous posts across the board which do exactly that. The "agnostic tendancies" part stems from the fact that I can't comprehend, I can't wrap my mind around, the concept of just where the heck the Universe came from, I can't understand the concept of "forever ago." Now don't get me wrong, this isn't a weak point in the athiestic argument, so all you christians out there don't too hasty to jump in with the "only God can solve that riddle" lecture, because none of you can tell me just where God came from. If you say "he's eternal," well then there's no reason to say the universe isn't eternal, and then I don't have a problem at all. Once again I say this is just one of the splits between athiesm and agnosticism, I'd be very interested in hearing some other views on the subject though, so everyone out there, write up your opinions!

    -Mierdaan

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    "Not all who wander are lost..."
    -J.R.R. Tolkien
     
  9. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    Although I don't belong to either group, agnostic or atheist, my understanding of the difference is this:

    Agnostics "disclaim any knowledge" of God while Atheists "deny the existence" of God.
     
  10. Bob T Registered Member

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    From the agnostics I have come in contact with I find they are too hung up on the "unknown" and project in to the "unknown" ideas that, until this time, were the province of religion. As an atheist I do not project any theological perspective upon what I do not know.
    At one time all Christendom projected the craziest ideas possible as to what lay beyond the known sailable oceans. They were all wrong. The world was not flat and nobody ever "sailed off the edge of the world".
    Whatever "unknown" is out there I will be content to wait till answers come from reliable sources other than religion.
     
  11. Vanja Registered Senior Member

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    Bob T-Why can't religion be reliable? Are you giving all ideas an equal chance?
     
  12. Vanja Registered Senior Member

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    Mierdaan-That is where faith comes in.
     
  13. Blacktubby Registered Senior Member

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    Vanja,

    "Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way
    you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that
    it can't be taken on its own merits."

    Dan Barker

    Faith is simply a confidence in something. It cannot be accepted as a proof unto itself.

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    Blacktubby,

    "Reality has a way of catching up with you, the way the ground catches up with an airplane that runs out of fuel."
     
  14. Pookums Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    48
    Ouch,

    As an agnostic, I feel as if I'm getting caught in the crossfire here. Let's make some clarifications...

    In my opinion, the basic question that delineates agnostics from atheists and theists is proof. An agnostic by definition heavily bases his/her worldview on empiricism. The 'unknown' regarding a deity is simply labelled as 'unknown'. Any attempted explanation of this unobserved event will be biased with personal beliefs and therefore should not be trusted.

    It seems as if that theists make a 'leap of faith' to accept the existance of a god when no clear empirical evidence exists. However, I would argue that atheists also must make a 'leap of faith' (ooh, I can bet this post might get some flak). You see, by the nature of things, there are no significant empirical data disproving the significance of a god.

    Often, agnostics are criticized for being post-sitters or middle-of-roaders. However, agnostics simply refuse to make conclusions based on incomplete observations. To me, this often seems more difficult than concluding that there is a god or not. Further, as I'm pretty sure the responses to this post will show:

    "the middle of the road is the most likely place to get hit" (Roddy Piper).

    Granted, agnostics can also have foundational philosophies. For example, like Boris, I too am a scientist and therefore heavily ingrained in reductionalist thought. However, this is how agnostics differ from nihilists.

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    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.
    -Mark Twain


    [This message has been edited by Pookums (edited October 22, 1999).]
     

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