Aung San Suu Kyi.. The Fall of a Human Rights Icon..

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Bells, Sep 15, 2017.

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  1. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Open question:
    Given that Kofi Annan has completed a reasonably thorough review of Myanmar's situation do you think that he would report a Government orchestrated genocide or ethnic cleansing if he witnessed it?
    He does know what a genocide or ethic cleansing is I guess...
     
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  3. Bells Staff Member

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    Amnesty International have finished their report and it has been released to the public.



    It details and tells of the attacks on various villages, of the mass murders, the ethnic cleansing of the men and boys, the rapes of women and then burning down the huts and houses where these mass rapes occurred, with the women and girls still inside. It tells of the torture and murders on men, women and children.

    It details and provides evidence of the organised methods used by the military and government forces, with the aid of non-Muslim civilians brought in to help with the ethnic cleansing. The burning of the villages, the times in which these attacks occurred on villages and just how it was systematic and organised. This wasn't a bunch of people turning up with pitchforks and torches, but organised, where they were spread out around the villages and opened fire at once, with many people never getting the chance to flee to safety. Most importantly, it shows a concerted effort to convey feelings of terror in the Rohingya, with the attacks occurring in particular stages, for maximum effect.

    The first stage was the early morning or evening attacks, where the soldiers and government forces and non-Muslim civilians would surround the village and open fire, and then they would burn down all the buildings after raping and torturing those who were unable to flee.

    The second stage saw the military and government forces informing villages that their village was next and would be attacked, which reduced the number of deaths, but it does show just how well these were planned.

    The report also details just how Aung San Suu Kyi lied when she addressed the press in September, in that fateful press conference where she referred to these crimes against humanity as being "clearance operations" and advised that they had stopped days prior, and denied any violence against innocent civilians..

    Through early October, the deliberate burning of Rohingya villages and neighbourhoods remained ongoing. UNOSAT reported on 3 October that, in the previous week, its satellites had detected “more than 160 thousand square meters of destroyed structures.”140 Amnesty International’s own analysis of satellite imagery and data likewise indicates that fires have continued to be set in Rohingya villages and neighbourhoods, often forcing people who tried to stay throughout the violence to finally leave for Bangladesh.

    Since 1 October, fire data from remote satellite sensing, analysed by Amnesty International, shows several large fires in villages in northern Rakhine State, consistent with previous fires associated with the burning of Rohingya villages. Cloud cover continued to affect satellite sensing across the region. Satellite data indicated, and satellite imagery confirmed, burning in Tin May village, Buthidaung Township, between 7 and 11 October; for this specific incident, Amnesty International has not yet determined whether the Myanmar security forces were directly involved, or if it was only local vigilantes.

    Amnesty International has also received credible information about the ongoing burning of Rohingya villages from trusted contacts inside northern Rakhine State, including villages burned between 6-11 October in Maungdaw and Buthidaung Townships.

    The recent burning of Rohingya villages contradicts State Counsellor Aung San Suu Kyi’s statement during her 19 September speech on the Rakhine crisis that the military’s “clearance operations” ended on 5 September.141 Witness accounts, satellite imagery and data, and photo and video evidence all suggest that dozens of Rohingya villages have been partially or completely burned since then,142 including several of those for which satellite imagery is presented above.

    The fires and operations she declared had stopped on the 5th of September.. They were still occurring in early October and people are still fleeing for their lives.

    Their report also details the ongoing restriction of aid to the region, meaning that those who managed to survive, are without food or medical help, leaving them with little choice but to flee, as evidenced by some they interviewed, who detailed how they were forced to flee to Bangladesh, after living in the forests and jungles after fleeing their villages, due to lack of food, as the soldiers and government and civilian forces, denied them access to any food or their own rice paddies or animals they kept. Those who remain in their villages, are not allowed to leave or move around, with aid and any supplies refused entry, these people are literally being starved to death and forced to flee their homes for Bangladesh.

    The report shows just how this is a deliberate and concerted attempt to wipe the Rohingya off the face of Myanmar. Government policies now prevent and refuse them the right to return to their homes and villages, or even to the country.

    Their recommendations to the international community, which includes the UN, EU, ASEAN includes an arms embargo, advising that the international community needs to stop selling and supplying arms and weapons to Myanmar, financial sanctions against senior officials who are complicit in these crimes against the Rohingya and other ethnic minorities in Myanmar, if the Myanmar Government continues to fail to bring a stop to this or act to protect innocent civilians from ethnic cleansing, then those who are perpetrating these crimes need to be brought to justice in the ICC for crimes against humanity, and hold regular public meetings to discuss the situation in Myanmar to put pressure on the country to stop the violence and allow these people to return home and restore their rights and citizenship.

    More than half a million Rohingya have fled to Bangladesh in these recent Government and military incursions. No one knows yet the true extent of the deaths. And we will probably never know the exact number, as the Government and military forces are burning the bodies, to hide how many they have killed. This is a common occurrence with ethnic cleansing and genocide.
     
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  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    This would not be the first time that an idealistic and passionately justice-motivated younger leader grew into atrocity and mass murder.

    They say that Mao Tse Tung was a kind and deeply inspired young man, to name one in the general area.

    They say that power corrupts, but the histories suggest more direct influence from the limits of power - the frustration of discovering that power is not enough, that however powerful one cannot accomplish certain things, that people just will not behave.
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    I don't really see it that way.

    I think that when it comes to the Rohingya and other ethnic minorities in Myanmar, Suu Kyi never really bothered or cared. She never saw them as being Burmese. So for her, like many ethnic Burmese, this is just normal, to rid the country of people they do not recognise as being Burmese or their kin.

    It's not that she grew into atrocity and mass murder. It's that she does not see their treatment as being an atrocity to begin with.
     
  8. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    21,065
    With the view to maintaining perspective...
    MSF stats for the time period:
    25th, August to the 17th September 2017
    Camp population 500,000 +

    ... medical facilities, including MSF’s own clinics, are completely overwhelmed. Between 25 August and 17 September, MSF clinics received a total of
    • 9,602 outpatients,
    • 3,344 emergency room patients,
    • 427 inpatients,
    • 225 patients with violence-related injuries, and
    • 23 cases of sexual violence.
    src: http://www.msf.org.au/article/project-news/rohingya-lives-risk-bangladesh
     
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,048
    [#rohingya]

    So, yeah, this is still going on.

    Veteran U.S. diplomat and former New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson abruptly resigned on Wednesday from an international panel established to advise Myanmar on its explosive Rohingya crisis, decrying the country's lack of "moral leadership" in a scornful letter.

    "It appears that the Board is likely to become a cheerleading squad for government policy as opposed to proposing genuine policy changes that are desperately needed to assure peace, stability, and development in Rakhine State," he wrote. "In initial meetings with members of the Advisory Board and [Myanmar's civil leader Aung San Suu Kyi], it has become clear that I cannot in good conscience serve in this role."

    Richardson, who served as the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations under President Bill Clinton, told Reuters that the panel had become "a whitewash." A scheduled trip by its members to Myanmar's border "just seemed like a big photo-op," he said in an interview with the Associated Press.


    (Cook↱)

    This is certainly not good news. Then again, as love and atrocity in the Third World go ... right, I got nothin'.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Cook, Jesselyn. "U.S. Diplomat Announces Resignation From Rohingya Crisis Panel In Scathing Statement". The Huffington Post. 24 January 2018. HuffingtonPost.com. 24 January 2018. http://bit.ly/2DyDyqt
     
  10. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,065
    *************************************************************************************

    It's been over a year and this thread deserves and update and also a way to meet my accuser Bells who has alleged that I am in favor of genocide and ethnic cleansing by supporting a more considered approach to the dilemma faced by Suu and her tenuous government.
    Bells claims as fact that the regime was committing genocide and ethnic cleansing.
    Perhaps Bells can post to thread exactly what facts she is talking about....
     
  11. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    23,128
    And I see you continue to embarrass yourself.

    Here is what I am talking about:

    https://news.un.org/en/story/2018/08/1017802

    And here:

    Marzuki Darusman, chair of the UN fact-finding mission on Myanmar, said thousands of Rohingya were still fleeing to Bangladesh, and the estimated 250,000 to 400,000 who have remained following last year’s brutal military campaign in the Buddhist-majority country “continue to suffer the most severe” restrictions and repression. “It is an ongoing genocide,” he told a news conference on Wednesday.

    Yanghee Lee, the UN special investigator on human rights in Myanmar, said she and many others in the international community hoped the situation under Aung San Suu Kyi “would be vastly different from the past — but it is really not that much different from the past”.

    She added later that she thinks Suu Kyi, the Nobel peace prize laureate and former political prisoner who now leads Myanmar’s civilian government, “is in total denial” about accusations that the military in Buddhist-majority Myanmar raped, murdered and tortured Rohingya and burned their villages, sending about 700,000 fleeing to Bangladesh since last August.

    “The government is increasingly demonstrating that it has no interest and capacity in establishing a fully functioning democracy where all its people equally enjoy all their rights and freedoms,” Lee said. “It is not upholding justice and rule of law”, which Suu Kyi “repeatedly says is the standard to which all in Myanmar are held”, she added.

    If this were the case, she said, fair laws would be applied impartially to all people, impunity would not reign, “and the law would not be wielded as a weapon of oppression”.

    Suu Kyi’s government has rejected independent international investigations into the alleged abuses and has commissioned its own probe. The government has also rejected the report by the mission led by Darusman, which said some top military leaders should be prosecuted for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Rohingya during the crackdown.

    “The Myanmar government’s hardened positions are by far the greatest obstacle,” Darusman told reporters. “Its continued denials, its attempts to shield itself under the cover of national sovereignty and its dismissal of 444 pages of details about the facts and circumstances of recent human rights violations that point to the most serious crimes under international law” strengthens the need for international action because “accountability cannot be expected from the national processes”, he said.


    Understand yet? Or do you want to troll and lie some more?
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  12. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    21,065
    and so you refer to a regime and yet your article refers to the military.

    “These have principally been committed by the military, the Tatmadaw,” he added, referring to Myanmar’s armed forces. “The Mission has concluded that criminal investigation and prosecution is warranted, focusing on the top Tatmadaw generals, in relation to the three categories of crimes under international law; genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes.”
    Ok?

    Is Suu mentioned any where in the proposed indictments? ( I could find no reference at all.)
    so, who is embarrassed now?... not I..

    You failed to consider the complexity faced by Suu when her very life, that of her family and Government are being held hostage by a corrupted military whose primary aim is not genocide or ethnic cleansing but expanding their human trafficking, slave or forced labor use and narcotics production. ( very plausible)

    You also failed at the time of the crisis to consider that Suu was holding talks in secret with world leaders for a reason and that that is it highly plausible that, any open discussion about the corruption of Myanmar's military could and most probably would have massive consequences for the remaining Muslim population most of whom were enslaved into forced labor and her immediate family. (Very plausible)

    The situation has changed since then and now I can discuss this issue with out threatening the lives of millions just to refute your allegations. As I said way back, any mention of Myanmar's military or regime was going to attract attention by the military in question. ( very plausible)

    Do I sound like a troll?

    Since the Rohingya were forceably and brutally removed from Ralkine state since 2017

    Article published 7-11-2018 Aljazera
    Organised crime groups are expanding and diversifying drug production in Southeast Asia's Golden Triangle raising concern the region could emerge as a hub for synthetic opioids such as fentanyl, according to the UN's Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC).


    Asia-Pacific counter-narcotics police met in Myanmar's capital Naypyidaw on Wednesday to negotiate a new strategy to curb the supply of chemicals used in synthetic drug production.
    The Golden Triangle, which is centred around Myanmar's conflict-ridden north, has exported illicit drugs to the world for decades. While opium cultivation and heroin trafficking has slumped in recent years, synthetic drug manufacturing - especially methamphetamine - has soared.


    UNODC regional representative Jeremy Douglas said the boom was "like nothing we have ever seen before, and it has required a matching surge in precursor chemicals."

    Article published: 7-11-2018 Reuters

    JAKARTA (Reuters) - Organised crime groups are expanding and diversifying drug production in Southeast Asia’s Golden Triangle amid fears the region could emerge as a hub for synthetic opioids like fentanyl, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC).
    There are many references if you choose to look for them that describe a massive and rapid expansion of the Myanmar drug production and trade as evidence to what happened after they removed the Rohingya from Rakhine state in such a brutal fashion.

    So what looks like an attempt at genocide and ethnic cleansing is more about money, drugs and exporting to the world methamphetamine protected, enforced and secured by the military.

    Suu has done all she could to prevent the mass slaughter of millions by a corrupted military.

    In Shan state, a centre of conflict and illicit drug production since 1950, the trade in heroin and methamphetamine tablets is controlled partly by Myanmar's army, the Tatmadaw, and partly by multiple armed militias, some with the patronage of the Tatmadaw.
    Myanmar has a total legitimate GDP of about 380 billion USD
    I would suggest that it's illegal GDP would be close to that again....

    Consider how much influence that amount of black money has...

    Now do you consider my post to be trolling?

     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  13. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,065
    if it was indeed a genocide the numbers of deaths would be in the millions given the capacity of the military.
    Consider the estimated 250000-400000 Rohingya are hostages and you can understand why the UN has been so slow to move.

    Now consider the report I posted #265 from MSF:
    MSF stats for the time period:
    25th, August to the 17th September 2017
    Camp population 500,000 +

    ... medical facilities, including MSF’s own clinics, are completely overwhelmed. Between 25 August and 17 September, MSF clinics received a total of
    • 9,602 outpatients,
    • 3,344 emergency room patients,
    • 427 inpatients,
    • 225 patients with violence-related injuries, and
    • 23 cases of sexual violence.
    src: http://www.msf.org.au/article/project-news/rohingya-lives-risk-bangladesh

    Do those statistics tell you genocide or ethnic cleansing?
    Out of 13000 patients 225 with violence related injuries...
    Does that sound like genocide?
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  14. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    23,128
    Tell me, is this the part where you are not carrying water for them?

    Remember, you stated that I lied about how you carried on about this and you then proceed to literally, and I mean literally attempt to deny genocide and then make excuses for it. Giving the quintessential 'she's misunderstood' spiel - when she literally spread propaganda to support the genocide, not to mention defended the arrest and jailing of two journalists who reported on the genocide.. You know, I do not think you have the capacity to be embarrassed.

    It's not just that your post is trolling. It is that it is this evil, repulsive form of trolling.

    For example:

    You could not find any reference at all? Despite my quoting UN officials about her?

    Okay then.

    How about the report itself?

    I take it, in your wisdom, you read that too?

    No? Yes?

    The State Counsellor, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, has not used her de facto position as Head of Government, nor her moral authority, to stem or prevent the unfolding events, or seek alternative avenues to meet a responsibility to protect the civilian population. On the contrary, the civilian authorities have spread false narratives, denied the wrongdoing of the Tatmadaw, blocked independent investigations (including that of the fact-finding mission), and overseen the destruction of evidence. Through their acts and omissions, the civilian authorities have contributed to the commission of atrocity crimes.


    So.. You either cannot read. Or you are lying.

    Which is it?

    And just an FYI.. "regime" in the context of this discussion refers to the state, which in Burma, is both the civilian and military leaders, since they co-lead the country.

    But let's look a bit further at that report, shall we?

    You claimed that she was what? Holding secret talks with world leaders?

    Was this before, during or after she a) denied what was happening, b) attempted to hide what was happening and c) attempted to deny the UN the right to investigate what was happening? And I am being kind here, because I have not even broached the fact that she then denounced the UN report.. There is a reason why the UN found that she and her civilian government contributed to the genocide.

    This is your fall back? Really?

    Do you understand what genocide entails?

    There is no "if".

    They committed acts of genocide.

    Your attempt to deny what they did because there are not enough dead bodies to satisfy your need for more dead to qualify as a genocide has been noted. Once again.

    This is sick and downright perverse!

    What is wrong with you? You are now attempting to deny that this is genocide because too many survived?

    What? Do you think genocide is just about killing? That ethnic cleansing is just about killing?

    How the UN defines genocide:

    Article II

    In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    (a) Killing members of the group;

    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


    What the UN found in Burma:

    Genocide is when a person commits a prohibited act with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group as such. The Rohingya are a protected group under this definition. Their treatment by the Myanmar security forces, acting in concert with certain civilians, includes conduct that amounts to four of the five defined prohibited acts: (a) killing; (b) causing serious bodily or mental harm; (c) inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of the group in whole or in part; and (d) imposing measures intending to prevent births. 85.

    The critical element of the crime is “genocidal intent”. The mission assessed its body of information in the light of the jurisprudence of international tribunals regarding the reasonable inference of such intent. The crimes in Rakhine State, and the manner in which they were perpetrated, are similar in nature, gravity and scope to those that have allowed genocidal intent to be established in other contexts. Factors pointing to such intent include the broader oppressive context and hate rhetoric; specific utterances of commanders and direct perpetrators; exclusionary policies, including to alter the demographic composition of Rakhine State; the level of organization indicating a plan for destruction; and the extreme scale and brutality of the violence committed.

    Any more denials and excuses you wish to make?
     
  15. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,065
    so you edit your post to include a link to cover up you silly mistake instead of simply owning it and moving on...?
    The link you provided as the head line:
    Myanmar military leaders must face genocide charges – UN report

    There are no charges of genocide being brought against Suu.

    Then after discovering your mistake you edit your post and add another link from the Guardian which has a credibility score of about 4/10 and is nearly 12 months old.
    that can be quoted from as stating:

    "She added later that she thinks Suu Kyi, the Nobel peace prize laureate and former political prisoner who now leads Myanmar’s civilian government, “is in total denial” about accusations that the military in Buddhist-majority Myanmar raped, murdered and tortured Rohingya and burned their villages, sending about 700,000 fleeing to Bangladesh since last August."

    "She thinks" is all the evidence you have to support your accusations? really?
    Do you understand how stupid that is?
    Third hand hearsay as evidence of such a horrendous crime... are you fit to be a moderator?


    IMO The reason for the silence, the blocking of investigators is to protect 100's of thousands of hostages, potentially millions, from being slaughtered including her self and her family.
    I am just glad that the million or so Rohingya that made it to Bangladesh managed to do so. Perhaps you have no idea just how brutal a drug cartel the size of those in the Golden Triangle can be.
    They wanted the Rohingya out of Myanmar, and they succeeded. If it was genocide the outcome would be vastly different.

    Repatriating the Rohingya back to Myanmar would amount to genocide... and something the UN needs to seriously consider before recommending such.

    The real issue here is about MONEY as is most often the case...not about religion, ethnic genealogy or anything else... Money and bags of it...cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine, slavery, child sexual exploitation, human trafficking.

    The rest of your post is pure hyperbole going no where....

    Do you know what the word Hyperbole means with out looking it up on the net?
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  16. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,065
    Have you actually spoken to any Rohingya ?
    We have a couple of asylum seekers families here in S/East Melbourne, whom I have chatted to on occasion.
    Not a lot of detail but enough to get an impression of what was/is really going on...

    Refusal to allow your children to be taken by the Cartels leads to house burning, rape, mutilations, flaying of skin, infanticide, homicide, torture and just about every atrocity you can imagine.

    Btw
    the conviction of Mexican Drug lord "El Chappo" Guzman is also relevant to this discussion.

    Notorious Mexican drug lord Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman was found guilty in a US court on Tuesday of operating a criminal enterprise.
    Jurors in federal court in Brooklyn began delivering their verdict following an 11-week trial. Guzman, 61, now faces a possible sentence of life in prison.
    Guzman was convicted on all 10 criminal charges he was tried for. US prosecutors said he had amassed a $14bn fortune through bribery, murder and drug smuggling.
    src: 12-02-2019 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019...hapo-guzman-guilty-trial-190212173553615.html

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Perhaps it was only with the arrest and conviction of this man that action is now possible regarding the rest of the victims in Myanmar including Suu her family and government.

    Sometimes to fix things you have to go quietly...as any ASIO, AFP, NSA, FBI, CIA, MI6 operative knows...

    Note: Please seriously consider that this forum may be under surveillance whether digital or direct and post accordingly.


     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  17. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    23,128
    I edited my post to add a quote from a UN official from The Guardian.

    I did not remove anything from my post. I added to it.

    So your attempt at a hypocritical smear is noted. Given you have been caught out changing someone's words in a quote to change its context so that you could attack them for it, your whine that I edited my own post to add a quote from another article is rich.

    The report from the UN cited her and her civilian Government as contributing to the genocide.

    It is written, clearly in the report. Here it is again:

    The State Counsellor, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, has not used her de facto position as Head of Government, nor her moral authority, to stem or prevent the unfolding events, or seek alternative avenues to meet a responsibility to protect the civilian population. On the contrary, the civilian authorities have spread false narratives, denied the wrongdoing of the Tatmadaw, blocked independent investigations (including that of the fact-finding mission), and overseen the destruction of evidence. Through their acts and omissions, the civilian authorities have contributed to the commission of atrocity crimes.​

    I do not particularly give a crap about your rancid opinions, QQ. You have once again proven yourself as making excuses for genocide. So frankly, your opinion means jack shit.

    I am dealing with actual facts. I am posting actual facts. I am posting reports from the UN and elsewhere, who have documented genocide. What do you respond with? Your opinion which amounts to excusing genocide and fanciful stories not based in reality at all.

    Unless you have evidence that her propaganda against the Rohingya (that the UN advised contributed to the genocide), her support of jailing journalists who reported on the genocide her civilian government was complicit in and contributed to, her refusal to speak out for the Rohingya, her refusal to grant the Rohingya their citizenship back, etc, was because she was apparently trying to save them (keep in mind that all evidence points to her actions as contributing to the genocide), I'd suggest you keep your opinions to yourself because you are again coming across as making excuses for genocide.

    I mean, I get that you would think that the UN definition of genocide, one that is generally accepted as being correct, is hyperbole. Because it does not fit your narrative, does it? You are whining that it has been determined as being genocide because you don't think enough people died. Which is sick and perverse.

    Oh hey. You are trying to change the subject again. And with a dose of even more crazy.

    We are discussing genocide in Burma. You bring up Mexican drug cartels and then somehow or other try to link it to an excuse for Aung San Suu Kyi's civilian government's contributions to the genocide..

    What's going to be next? Her horoscope?
     
  18. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,065
    yes you did add to it like I said but read on...

    Only after you read my response and found you had been mistaken.
    Remember email notification are happening...in case you had forgotten. next time you play this silly game.
    Also I take screen prints to avoid the issue of a mod using her mod power to covertly edit posts as she willfully may wish to. ( yeah I have run forums myself many times)
    As to the rest of your post, I wish to deal with it in detail and will post when I get the time....
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  19. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,065
    BTW You really should read the links you provide. The PDF file, that you slipped in, isn't the file you referred to (another one of those errors perhaps? ) actually supports my case more than it does yours especially when compared to later ( than 12-9-2018) announcements by the UN
    Your poisonous manipulation is staggering to witness.... back soon...
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  20. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,065
    Firstly, are you aware of the assassination of Suu's long term Muslim Legal advisor?

    The office of Myanmar's civilian President has said the assassination of a lawyer advising the ruling party on amending a military-drafted constitution was likely an effort to destabilise the country.
    Key points:
    • The president's office says investigations are underway, while a suspect has been detained
    • It is unclear if Ko Ni was killed was his religion or for his work on the role of the military
    • Thousands gathered to mourn Ko Ni, however Myanmar leader Suu Kyi did not attend
    On Sunday, a lone gunman shot 63-year-old Ko Ni — an adviser to the ruling National League for Democracy (NLD) — in the head in front of onlookers as the widely respected Muslim advocate held his young grandson at Yangon's international airport.
    src: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01...eant-to-destabilise-myanmar-statement/8227856
    He was working on the reforming of the military imposed constitution. A key reform instigated by Suu once taking office.
    • What does his assassination tell you about the situation in Myanmar?
    Secondly, are you aware of the long and bloody civil wars that have taken place and are currently still taking place?
    Thirdly, Have you considered what would most likely happen if Suu miss-spoke or other wise offered any support for any specific ethnic group in Myanmar?


    Now to your use of poison....


    I am not writing for you Bells... so you're don't give a shit issue is yours alone...
    Facts like "She thinks that..." ...yeah facts....of opinion are not facts except of opinion.

    Has Suu been indicted?
    Are they intending to indict her?

    Who are they indicting?

    Please inform the board of actual facts in your own words supported by links.

    Has any one been convicted of genocide?

    I am not excusing genocide nor is any one else. Why do you think I am?

    Spurious accusations like that with out any support are quite poisonous.
    • Bells obviously has no idea of the sensitivities involved in the Myanmar conflict zone.
    • Not only has there been massive civil war amongst many millitias and groups, there has been massive drug production and cartel operations all of which expanded massively since the Rohingya were evicted from Myanmar. In 2010 it was estimated that 40% of Myanmar's foreign exchange was through the sale of drugs. Add to this human trafficking, child exploitation one can see that Myanmar is heavily dependent on illegal activities supported by slavery and forced labor.
    • Bells most serious grievance and those who have no idea of what's actually happening is that Suu refused to make statements decrying what others thought were going on in her nation. Mass hysteria of the press leads to false information...
    • Suu's silence is the main cause of angst simply because their understanding was flawed, incomplete and ignorant to begin with.
    • Bells fails to understand that one wrong word said in public could have disastrous consequences for not only the remaining Muslim population but other ethnic minorities as well. Not to mentioned her own families safety.
    • Bells in her ignorance fails to understand that Suu's capacity to restrain the countries military is effectively non-existent. That all activities, propaganda etc are at the behest of that military.
    • Bells fails to understand that most of the nation has little to none infrastructure worth taking seriously. NO real roads, sewage, electricity beyond the major cities.
    • So the UN requests the ability to investigate, with the intent to find out, not understanding that their very presence could actually lead to the creation of a genocide and push the entire country into even further bloodshed.
    • If the nations of the world actually stopped to ask what they could do to help after gaining a real understanding by first having a strong objective dialogue with Suu, of what is happening perhaps more could have been done and could be done.

    more to come...
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  21. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    23,128
    I edited my post at 10:25 am. You posted at 10:47 am yesterday as it shows on my screen.

    How you think I read your post before I edited my post to add in the Guardian article is beyond me.

    Please learn to timestamp.

    Your suggestion that I did it covertly, is ridiculous. Any moderator can see the history of that post and can tell you exactly what I added on and when. So stop lying.

    Don't forget, I can see the numerous edits you did to your own posts and what time you did them.

    And I would suggest, that before you start accusing me of abusing my moderation powers on this site, that you have a damn good evidence to back it up.

    I did not "slip it in". I linked it.

    That PDF file that was linked, a few times now, is the UN report that I also quoted from. Check the date at the top of the report.

    Again, stop lying.

    Which was already covered in this thread previously.

    She did not attend his funeral and did not speak of him for weeks after his death.

    Which is hardly surprising given her avid support for actions against Muslim minorities in the country.

    Did you bother to read the UN report that was linked a few times now? Which clearly state that the civilian government members should also face further action for their part in the genocide? Did you fail to note how they pointed the finger directly at her, for her spread of propaganda from her office and use of social media and media in general to spread said propaganda which aided in the genocide?

    I am not the one waxing the lyrical about why she did not speak out, etc. You are the one doing that.

    You aren't just excusing it. You are denying it even happened.
     
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,048
    This changes what is happening, how?

    It would be one thing if we might be able to say the prior experience has her too afraid to be courageous; as such, Aung San Suu Kyi would need to resign.

    To the other it this way: Not long ago, in my society, my people won a revolution. It is also arguable that in doing so we cut in line ahead of other people hurt by discrimination, dehumanization, and hatred. If I said "human rights" in our fight, was that just for me and mine, or did I really, really mean human? If I meant only for me and mine, then it never was about human rights, and we shouldn't have used the term.

    This is one of the harder parts of figuring out my place in American supremacism, but when I discover within myself lingering vestiges of awful standards it becomes my duty to comprehend and dismantle them. But I know the silence; I know the words; I know the xenophobia. Throughout history, where we have such records of leaders' words and actions relating to atrocity, we find not simply the failures of courage that prevent one from speaking out appropriately, but also the fear that gives way to hatred that one might advance the crimes against humanity. Complicity is what it is; collaboration even more so. Sympathizing with pretenses of necessity is, itself, what it is, but that does not change the fact of the dead, the continuing atrocity, or the effects of a leader's words and actions.

    The old American pretense of not negotiating for the hostages makes sense on paper, but when we look at how it was applied, the degree to which opposition itself was terrorism, we find the reasons so many are offended by its rigidity. Still, though, as a matter of practicality, trying to rescue the hostages, or even merely searching for them, can endanger them.

    At some point, the question is why Aung San Suu Kyi and Myanmar should be an exception. A hero takes a fall; it happens, sometimes. Meanwhile, the inflicted human catastrophe continues.

    But it would be one thing if the trauma of imprisonment has her paralyzed, and, still, she would need to get out of the way for a leader who will stand up for humanity. However, your critique overlooks statements on record including the remarks about being interviewed by a Muslim, being a politician; she even disqulified people from rule of law.

    Consider your note in #31 (Sept. 2017)↑ above: "The fact is the majority of Myanmar citizens, whether under duress or not, wish the Bengali, as they call them, to not reside in Myanmar. To force an outcome where they go back will only force a repeat of the cycle and more deaths and dislocation will follow."

    As an American, I live in a nation that raised up on slavery, survived a Civil War, only marginally failed to complete a genocide against the prior occupants of the land, maintains a slow genocide against the heritage of its former slaves, and continues denigration and subjugation of people according to sex; observing the history of my American heritage, I categorically refuse another Trail of Tears, or other such dislocation of a people. If the fact really is that the majority of Myanmar citizens, whether under duress or not, wish to be so awful and, yes, self-destructive, that does not mean they have the right to take it out on anyone else. I come from a place where we once had a shooting war over blue flowers, and it's true, a majority of the people who came and destroyed other people's food had a hard time understanding why the others would be so upset; they also had a hard time understanding what made those other people, who already lived there when the destroyers arrived, so uppity as to think they had any right whatsoever to have an opinion on that or any other matter. And let's be clear: It wasn't just about the land; Americans made sure to take it out on them.

    I never really have understood the utility of the argumentative framework you presented with that list; when arguing that another has no idea, and fails to understamd and in ignorance, and so on, one increases risk of exposure to error and omission. What your critique misses or overlooks or fails to understand of whatever is the blatant spectre of atrocity about words and actions actually undertaken; Aung San Suu Kyi's is not simply a failure to do, but also a failure to not do.
     
  23. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,065
    Thank you for that....
    can I ask...
    • If you were faced with a similar situation as Suu, what would you do?
    • In her shoes you would do what?
    The reason I ask such an obvious empathy, is because until we actually know what is going on we can not answer. To answer this question you would have to actually do some research because your life and the life of millions is in your hands.

    • What factors must you consider in this answer?
    • Does the assassination of her long term Muslim legal counsel while holding his baby child in his arms mean anything?
    Die like Gandhi.

    As one reporter/interviewer asked in an intimate interview on the BBC, "Why didn't you die like Gandhi?"
    • What do you think was her answer to that absurd question?
    Bells comments reek of disappointment in a woman who would not die like Gandhi.

    • Why doesn't Bells or even yourself die like Gandhi?

    Myanmar is only a short plane ride. Go for it, step off the plane and die like Gandhi.
    In a place like Myanmar staving to death is easy, and so is getting killed by an assassin.

    Bells probably knew more about the so called genocide that Suu did. After all Suu is trying to get facts to lead with and can not accept foreign media conflations, and Bells type hysterics as a way to deal with a crisis.
    Why didn't Bells do anything to stop it? Besides arm waving and vitriolic, self righteous anger at her own impotence.

    The UN has a terrible reputation for dealing with these issues. promise much and then actually deliver the victim so often. (Former republic of Yugoslavia)
    Failed to act in Rwanda. The UN itself has probably a worse human rights record than Suu has. No action on Syria, Yemen, none in Ukraine or Crimea... Are they guilty for lack of action?
    Arm waving, self righteous, sanctimonious, emotionally hysterical people attempting to tell a struggling, war torn, totally corrupted nation that the only leader they have had for decades if not centuries, should die like Gandhi.

    • Is the UN responsible for inaction in Yemen?

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    So do Bells and others feel the world has a right to point it's blame finger, yet sit back and do nothing them selves?
    Watching young children starve to death, while snacking on a toasted sandwich deluded into thinking... "It's ok the UN will handle it"... well sorry to tell you, they haven't and they wont. It takes people and devoted resources and not a delusion to handle it.

    As you know the situation is complex, the situation in Myanmar would have to be the most complex and volatile situation I have ever had the misfortune of researching and experiencing. ( indirectly )
    Any miss-step ends up like this:

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    or like Rwanda or Bosnia.

    So when asked by that BBC interviewer:
    "Why didn't you die for the Rohingya as Gandhi would have?"

    • What would your answer be?

    I could only think of Bells and the absurdity of her sanctimonious ignorant BS then realized that Bells is not well and needs a more compassionate response as does the rest of the hysterical cowardly reactions from ignorant people all over the world.

    Suu is holding watch on a metaphorical 200 mega ton nuclear weapon and every one wants her to play tiddilie-winks with global public opinion.


    So die like Gandhi and then and then only, Bells and ilk might have something to actually say.
     
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