Australian Bush Fires

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by RainbowSingularity, Dec 31, 2019.

  1. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    7,447
    there is no number of houses, schools or trees that are worth the death of a fire officer

    you cant save lifes if your dead

    be safe
    play the long game
     
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  3. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    when that wind turns southerly would be an ideal time for air tankers to start dumping on saturation fire break lines to help protect residential housing


    what would seem obvious and mandatory would be air support tankers assigned to ground crews so ground crews can call in a tanker drop for protection.

    i should imagine the ADF would comprehend such an idea of compulsory air support for ground position.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
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  5. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    southern wind shift appears a bit unpredictable, buffeting wind directions
    choppy waters and possibly cold water ...(thermal change blood glucose fatigue cramp drowning/falls trips sleepiness passing out)
    dont swamp ya boat
    dont run out of fuel in ya boat

    re-charge ya cell phones from the boat motor
     
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  7. LaurieAG Registered Senior Member

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    586
    Luckily they managed to get out at 3pm today.
    I haven't noticed if they have but our ABC TV/Radio should really be broadcasting this stuff.

    The 2 links below are about the federal joint committee reports made into the ACT bushfires in 2003 (second one is chapter 2 of the report). Apparently a succession of federal and state governments (of the major political parties) have turned effective forest management policies into just putting out fires to save money. My brothers house was burnt down in this fire and he was living in an outer suburb in Canberra, our nations capital.

    I suspect some sort of media/political quid quo pro in the current hysteria being generated. Lets hope, when this is over, the politicians in our major political parties reverse their course and work together to prevent further occurrences instead of wasting the opportunity to fix the problem. Unfortunately a new tax and a pay rise for our politicians is a more than likely outcome (an extra AU$50k for each MP on top of their normal remuneration after the carbon tax and massive pay rises of 30% within 6 months of introducing the 10% GST).

    https://volunteerfirefighters.org.a...ing-to-the-severity-of-recent-bushfire-damage
    https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentar...ees?url=bushfires/inquiry/report/chapter2.pdf
     
  8. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    No one knows.

    They claim to have done so. But are unable to say exactly from where and when they will arrive. Instead, all we got was.. nothing..

    A few of them are now being used for that purpose.

    The rest are being used to hunt down the people who put needles in strawberries (jks)..

    Our Prime Minister:


    We are talking about a government, led by a man who rocked up to the remnants of a town that was destroyed on NYE, while the Prime Minister partied and watched fireworks, with more riot police than he brought water and food for those firemen.. Who when the people refused to shake his hands, he grabbed their hands anyway for those photo-ops, and who today, released an ad trying to politically capitalise on the bushfire and then tried to seek donations by misleading people into believing they were donating to a bushfire appeal, but it was to his political party.. When he was asked to allow the ADF to help and provide more helicopters a few months ago, he refused..


    Glad to hear it! I hope everything goes okay for them.

    Yes and no. A person I knew very well is a fireman in Canberra and at the time, he noted that it was worse because they were prevented from doing burn-offs for years before that because politicians who had houses with views complained more than anyone else. Apparently the smoke was bothersome at the time.. Then the Canberra fires happened.

    Where I am in QLD, they do burn-off's in winter still in some areas, but they did not last year as it was so dry, a spark would have lit it up and in the end it did and we lost a lot since September.. It was awful. Bushfire season started in late August for us when we had a massive heatwave and high 30's and low 40's temp in August last year.. They were unable to do any land clearing as it is usually during that time of the year that they would do it.

    I am finding the new fleet of BMW's to be equally offensive..

    And they aren't going to come together to deal with this going forward. Our previous fire management plans are no longer effective, as our bushfire seasons are so much longer now. We need better prevention, but we also need a better means of responding when fires to break out. When this started, they refused to allow the ADF to help.. They refused more tankers from the Northern Hemisphere.. And it kind of spiraled to what we have now. There was never a pause from when it broke out in September.. It just got worse and spread further south and here we are today.

    The only thing that is going to stop these fires is rain, or until there is nothing left to burn. It's simply a case of too little too late now. What he is doing now, should have been done months ago.

    To be honest, I don't think they understand the risk or dangers of bushfires. Nor do I think they actually care. They are all about self promotion now. It's disgusting.

    These fires are now political fodder.
     
  9. LaurieAG Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    586
    IMHO, the long term indirect cause of the bushfires is climate change while the short term direct cause is poor forestry management practices. Failing to address both the short term and the long term causes will not provide a balanced solution to the problems we face in the near and distant future. The common factor in both cases are federal and state government inaction by all major political parties over the preceding decades. The Greens and I are in agreement over who is responsible but the real solution lies in a balanced approach.

    The first link below has a direct link to the federal joint committee report on the 2003 ACT bushfires while the second shows the other side of the spectrum. My brother had to evacuate and lost his house in the 2003 fires. Lets hope that the cooler heads prevail and the hotter heads on either side are forced into providing a balanced solution.

    https://volunteerfirefighters.org.a...ing-to-the-severity-of-recent-bushfire-damage
    https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...-war-over-climate-policy-20200103-p53oia.html
     
  10. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    7,447
    great to hear the news saying that the ADF who trains to help other countries in times like this has been activated to helping their own communities neighbors,family & future.

    small town satellite economy reliant on small business operators hold key stakes in moving new money into communities.

    my rough guess as far as losses

    1.2 million per residential house loss
    plus roughly 35% (around 380k per residential house per year)loss for business per year afterward.

    currently numbers i have gathered roughly from various media reports is around 750 houses in 2 months
    possibly now standing closer to 1000 within the next 2 weeks(rough guess)

    = 1.2 billion in residential loss of assets
    plus 35% of that per year loss on business income
    so expected minimum loss 1st year of around 400 million business income loss

    probably
    predominantly in small to medium sole operator owner/operator businesses(self employed)
     
  11. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,447
    This is a bit of a mind bender
    Homes flooded in Cooma during NSW fire emergency after water tank bursts
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01...id-fires-damaging-homes-and-property/11841596

    from the very brief glance the camera does it looks like the concrete was very old and very poor quality(aged)

    im guessing it was the 1st time its been filled with cold water in searing heat exerting massive pressures on super old low quality concrete
    etc etc...

    let the kids play in the lounge sewer while i make dinner
    "mummy my homework project is covered in poos"

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  12. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Way more than 1,000.

    It was over 1500 houses lost on 1/1/20.. We have lost hundreds more since then.

    And it's not 2 months. We have been in a bushfire emergency since the end of September/October to now, starting in QLD and northern NSW..

    We literally cannot put a cost on losses.

    What is wrong with you?

    They were hit by a veritable mudslide when those tanks exploded.
     
  13. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,447
    loss of school time
    loss of critical nutrition food for brain development
    loss of resources for schooling education continuity
    high risk of secondary health issues
    ecoli listeria etc etc on children who have low nutrition food & high stress which lowers the immune system

    the loss of a zone where they can maintain psychological stability for social integration continuity

    loss issues
    lack of collective socialization patterns and normative social behavior models around the school and school socialization patterns undermining education.

    life must go on for kids in school
    education MUST continue
    essential basic food nutrition MUST continue even more so to cope with the increased disproportional use of key minerals and vitamins for brains dealing with stress and attempting to grow and learn maths and other such technical aspects.

    ...

    extenuated loss perceptions of disparity to social outcomes(psychological damage through social inequality of key peer groups that enable stable learning environments in school settings for brain social behavior development and learning study habits)
    flooding on top of fires
     
  14. LaurieAG Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    586
    Does anybody have any information on how electric car batteries behave in Australian heat and bush fires?

    There seems to be quite a bit about Lithium Ion car batteries catching on fire after collisions with solid objects but very little about them being burnt in external fires of varying temperatures. I found a PDF from the CSIRO on Lithium Ion battery recycling that recommended that they not be incinerated but the Wikipedia page says that they can be incinerated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Environmental_impact_and_recycling

    Surely, at a minimum level, Australian Standards testing of electric cars should include duplicating various bush fire incineration scenario's with the aim to identify the size of the debris/fire/toxic fume fields to determine exactly where the vehicle(s) would be considered safe.
     
  15. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    7,447
    poor people do not buy electric cars

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-15/sa-tesla-battery-site-on-track-to-charge-may/10496282

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    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-04/how-tesla-sa-labor-free-battery-scheme-would-work/9394728

    Elon Musk's Tesla plans to give thousands of homes batteries: here's how it would work
    By political reporter Nick Harmsen
    Updated 5 Feb 2018, 8:43am


    soo leaving all the political
    & economic issues & all the socioeconomic issues to one side

    your question is
    "do electric cars cause more/worse bush fires than petrol cars" ?

    if i was going to evacuate from a bush fire i would choose a petrol car

    if i was going to choose a petrol or electric car to catch on fire in the garage of my new multi million dollar house while i sheltered in my bush fire bunker under ground ...
    i would choose electric because the battery is unlikely to explode, where as a petrol tank is more likely to explode

    the explosion is likely to cause more damage than the battery burning hot for several hours
    the petrol tank exploding in the garage is more likely to bring to bear a larger over all fuel load that will ignite
    as opposed to a directed heat convection toward 1 wall of the garage that will likely burn all the way through.
    the garage being aerated and filled with burning petrol is likely to ignite the entire garage adding massive amounts of fuel that will likely create an incursion into the house structure.
     
  16. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    7,447
  17. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,635
    Typically they are a lot safer in a fire than a gasoline tank. They are not flammable - and do not release flammable gases - until the battery cells themselves reach well over 100C. Gasoline, of course, is flammable at any temperature, and the usual process is fire heats fuel tank -> tank vents -> flames intensify with new fuel -> tank explodes. Several fires have broken out in parking lots and destroyed dozens to hundreds of cars, because once one gas tank goes up, the cars next to it quickly start burning. Here's an instance where a single (gasoline) car fire led to 300 cars burning up:

    https://autoweek.com/article/car-life/video-watch-over-300-cars-burn-massive-fire-parking-lot

    In addition, they are a lot less likely to start fires. Many fires in the US are caused by gasoline vehicles whose engine catches fire, whose muffler drags on the ground, or whose catalytic converter breaks open and releases 1000 degree C pellets. A brush fire less than a quarter mile from my house was started by one last year. Fortunately there was a water tanker nearby, and a single drop put it out before it spread to more than an acre.
     
  18. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,447


    notice the people standing directly down wind of the burning plastic and toxins just standing there watching
     
  19. LaurieAG Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    586
    I read that the battery cars are safer than petrol cars with rear fuel tanks in accidents (i.e. like the 1973 Pinto) but I haven't seen anything that tests the cars and battery packs in the various conditions associated with bush fires in Australia. Also, the incinerators referred to in the Wikipedia article were used to destroy the batteries and were sealed to prevent the toxic gasses generated from escaping.

    It looks like nobody has tested any of these vehicles for Australian conditions so Australia will have to develop a set of testing standards for bushfires at the minimum.

    Alternatively electric car makers could just change a few details on the Pinto Memo and ban all copies of "Fight Club".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto#Cost–benefit_analysis,_the_Pinto_Memo
     
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,635
    Has anyone tested gasoline cars for Australian bushfire conditions? Diesels? Natural gas cars? Ebikes? Motorcycles? Boats? If not, should probably do that first, since there are way more of them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    The description of this data visualization is fairly general: Visualisation of Australia based on NASA satellite data, by Anthony Hearsey:

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    Additionally, I saw a differemt map going around Twitter, and ABC News (US)↱ is using a similar presentation:

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    Strangely cinematic themes occur to mind: How many burned-out, postapocalyptic vistas? Even the passing glimmer of wildfires raging out of control, easily dismissed as melodramatic overstatement, failed to grasp the scale; while there was an EF-3 fire tornado in Canberra, 2003, the event during the 2018 Carr fire outside Redding, California, surprised most Americans.

    I make a grim joke about what people vote for, and, yes, they will vote for extinction if you frame the question correctly.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    @georgeeaton. "Image of the decade so far - a visualisation of Australia based on NASA satellite data (by Anthony Hearsey)." Twitter. 7 January 2020. Twitter.com. 7 January 2010. http://bit.ly/35yWF0u

    Zarrell, Matt. "Using US map to examine scale of massive Australia wildfires". ABC News. 7 January 2020. ABCNews.Go.com. 7 January 2020. https://abcn.ws/2SZvbyE
     
  22. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,447
    R.I.P Samuel McPaul

    RFS firefighter who died when fire tornado flipped truck during Green Valley bushfire named as Samuel McPaul
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-31/rfs-volunteer-firefighter-dies-in-truck-rollover/11833634

    i was pondering if the 2 large fires merge to make a megga fire if we might see images like in some end of the world movie with flaming tornadoes ripping through suburban housing
    it sounds to fantastic but seems to be almost expected given certain scenarios and weather patterns.

    its such a large country
    ive heard noises by some suggesting its not really a big issue
    when you look at the map and apply thier thinking
    its only the outer edges that are on fire
    all the middle parts are not

    ... uummm... the middle bits that are not on fire are around 45 Degrees Celsius and will kill you in about 5 hours from heat stroke and lack of water.
    most of the population live in the burning parts.
     
  23. LaurieAG Registered Senior Member

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