Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by w1z4rd, Mar 19, 2007.
Why is the claim in that quote valid?
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Perhaps it is true that God is indeed not the author of confusion.
And perhaps that is why the Bible cannot be "God's Word", but is instead the confusing "Word of Men." It is the only thing that makes any sense. The Bible teaches that God is not the author of confusion but it also teaches that God Himself has deliberately confused and deceived the hearts and minds of many people in order to prevent them from being saved.
This in itself is confusion and contradiction!
What the God has done in the Bible is conceal the truth from the wrong individuals. It is true that God has conceal the truth in his word like a lock or a combination. Thus it is not simple to understand without the propper key.
But while the Bible may have a lock to keep the false prophets, apostates, and worldly men from understanding his purpose the key...it is so incredibly simple and available to all men that understanding the Bible's pages a matter of heart condition.
The bible even says as much.
Even more radical is inversely how difficult it will be for some to attain this key to the bible understanding. The key to the Bible is...meekness. Through it you'll willingly take in Bible knowledge. Not for the purpose of defying God but to truely understand God's word...
For a certain type of man the pages of the Bible will be blank.
Yet for the meek, and honest hearted man willing to be guided the bible is an ephifany of knowledge and wisdom.
I'm sure if you were to adopt meekness you to would begin to understand the Bible to the full.
Why must God ever deliberately confuse and deceive those whom He supposedly came to save, who are already confused and deceived? Why must He ever take deliberate steps to prevent the salvation of those who are lost? Is He not working in opposition to Himself in this? I thought that Satan was the deceiver of men, not God.
According to you, Paul should clearly have been prevented from ever being saved. Was Paul ever meek, Saquist? No!
What kind of cruel gospel are you teaching?
"Meek" tranlslates from the Hebrew for Guidable, so you're wrong again Seti.
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We all know what meek means. Thanks for reiterating that.
Sheep are guidable. And it is even stated, the lord is my shepherd...blah blah. Who the hell wants to be a fuckin sheep? Are we not allowed to use the 'precious gift' of free will that god supposedly gave us to question what he's doing up there w/o fear of repercussions? If not, it's something I want no part of. God is apparently not open to suggestions or negotiations (sounds just like a merciful, benevolent, forgiving god to mePlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) Just like people in a communist country aren't allowed to question or badmouth their government. What a striking similarity.
Well, Satan is supposed to be the tempter of men. God isn't, HOWEVER, IMO, since God apparently allows Satan to do this, then He should be ultimately responsible, as if He did do it himself.
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Meek is from the notion of a bridled horse, no sheep bridles, unless you like to bridle your sheep.
If we're talking about Paul, wouldn't the translation be from Greek? If so, then that word is prautes, meaning mild or gentle and, according to Vincent (1957), it is defined by Plato as a word that opposes fierceness or cruelty. It says nothing of "guidable." In Greek it looks like: πραεις
The Hebrew word for meek is anav, meaning "depressed (figuratively), in mind (gentle) or circumstances (needy, especially saintly):--humble, lowly, meek, poor. (Strongs 1990). In Hebrew it looks like וינע
In no reference I've seen do any scholars refer to 'meek' as 'guidable.' More evidence of your inventing data to support your delusions.
Strong, James (1990). The New Strong's exhaustive concordance of the Bible. New York: Eaton and Mains.
Vincent, Marvin (1957) Word Studies in the New Testament, vol 1, p. 37. Grand Rapids, MI, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.
I know very well what the word "meek" means, thank you Ice, and also that you do not appear to be it!
It certainly doesn't mean "guidable."
Try as you may Seti there is no cruel gospel to find. You mention "preventing salvation" of the confused and the deceived.
You've assumed that those he's made the truth elusive to are the confused and the decieve. Yet the bible speaks of those who would pruposely block God's work on the Earth, pharisies and apostates. These and people like them work against God in full knowledge of the truth and message. They have alterior motives, selfishness, greed, and power.
The decieved and confused you speak are those that have been in the grip of false religion. Sometimes the two mix company but mostly the decieved and confused merely want the truth but are "thrown about without a sheperd" for which to guide them. They are angry and discusted by the situation on the Earth today. They recognize that man has gotten himself litteraly no where in bettering mans situation.
First you say
Then you say
So...the "wrong" people won't be able to know God's message, but the "wrong" people know God's message? I don't get it. I don't even care which one is supposedly true, I just want to know which one you actually believe, since you've contradicted yourself.
Please explain that.
So, basically, the idea is for people to stop questioning, and just start believing? Just blindly follow? Is that your message?
Surrender and you shall understand or believe and ye shall believe.
Quit a clever mindgame. The Bile is absurd....unless you accept its absurdity as valid. Then it is valid.
Let us see where else we can use this "logic".
Santa Clause is a ridiculous cxhildish fairy tale unless you accept him seriously. Then he is a serious fairy tale.
Do we see a commonality between religiuos minds?
What is it?
As was the case with the early orthodox church "fathers".
But alas, the proper heart condition is required to see through their deceptions.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Saquist, if all unbelievers have been blinded so they cannot see the “truth” no matter what they do, by some outside force that is exterior to them (no matter who it is, either God or Satan), then they are not guilty for that blindness themselves, and cannot be justly held responsible for that blindness. Why? Because someone else, God or Satan, blinded them! This is basic!
The Lord has made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.
What kind of “gospel” or “good news” is this, Saquist? A person is either blinded by God or by Satan. And they are not even permitted to ask God why He has done this to them? It obviously has nothing to do with “man's desire or effort”, or in other words, with anything that they ever did or thought either right or wrong (See Romans 9:16)!
I still have to ask why God must ever find it necessary to deceive those who are already deceived? So that they "all might be damned"? They are supposed to be damned already! And according to Mark 2:17 and other places Jesus came to save these very people, the lost.
17And hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
We've been barking up this tree in this thread for what, 30 pages now? It's like trying to drive a car jacked up on a lift; the wheels are just going to keep spinning in place.
I wouldn't expect an answer from them in any form other than something similar to:
-you must read the bible to thoroughly understand it
-you must be born again and accept the holy spirit
-if you do not truly believe with your heart (mind, soul, etc.) then the true nature of the bible will not be revealed to you
I challenge any Christian on here to come up with an answer that has at least some level of common sense in it, that non-believers who actually think logically, can understand; answers that don't fall under some version of the three things that I listed above.
I've only talked to a SCANT FEW Christians that would actually resond with some common sense by responding with something like, "yeah, you're right dude. those scriptures do sound fishy. It would be nice if God did reveal that to us."
To me that would show some level of questioning, which would indicate that they weren't just another lemming following blind faith.
I think faith is important, but metaphorically speaking, the whole thing is like a house; faith may be the walls, framing, roof and windows of the house, but logic and reasoning is the foundation. And can we have a house without a foundation? NO!
You're a bit confused and I'll consider that my fault. I need to specify between "God's Message" in the bible and between "God's deeper insights"
God's Message is readily available to everyone. However there are those, as the Apostates, who have that message but can not appreciate these deeper, and more profound insights because their own character flaws. Selfishness, Greed and lust for power...not to mention arrogance and pride.
Satyr does not seem to be incouraging any kind of discoarse thus I feel compelled to skip to nova.
You're completely correct. It takes a right hearted individual to break out of tradition and orthodoxy to find the truth admist the layers of lies that have been built up from that time onto today.
Satyr mention Santa Claus, the biggest most commonly repeated lie of modern times and possibly of all time.
But you didn't answer my other question, Saquist...
Are you saying that the way to enlightenment is to just stop questioning it? I mean, you really did sound as if you were saying that the answer is to blindly follow, and just take the Bible at its word.
I can't pick any one criteria I posted above that this would fall under...because it really falls under ALL of them. I rest my case.
Seti, answering your post is frequently easier said than done. Because you come to me with scripture as your complaint I must return in kind.
Firstly, allow us to address 2 Corinthians 4:4
The bible shows us who the god of this system of things is Jesus' illustrations of the "sower of fine seeds"
This scriptures shows us that it is Satan the Devil's purpose to blind us from God's message.
You then said the following...
"blinded so they cannot see the truth no matter what they do," I must
tell you the scripture you presented here does not tell us "blind no matter what."
When the bible uses the term blind it is certainly metaphorical. Surely most of us can see somewhere near 20/20. So what does the bible mean by blinded?
The Hebrew and Greek words for "blind" are iwwer' and typhlos' both being used in a literal and a figurative sense.-De 27:18; Isa 56:10; Mt 15:30; 23:16
But the figurative Uses. Many times the groping about of the blind serves as an illustration of helplessness. Jesus used the occasion of healing the man blind from birth to point out the reprehensibility of the Pharisees because they professed to be those with spiritual sight and willfully refused to come out of their blind condition.
The apostle Paul spoke to the Ephesians about having the eyes of their heart enlightened. Jesus points out that those who profess to be Christians but who are not conscious of their spiritual need are blind and naked, not discreing their pitiful groping condition (Re 3:17)
You see, Satan's art is in deception. His name: Satan the Devil, means litteraly Slanderer and Deceiver and he uses his ability to entice us. Money, Love, material gain, power they are all tactical tools used direct us away from from that message of hope. We are blinded when something we want is set before our eyes as a distraction.
Now Satan does this with the purpose of redirecting our attention away from God. However God does redirects the attention of wicked ones with the intent to protecting his faithful ones on the Earth carring out his purpose on the Earth, such as in the case of Pharoh. Yet these same individuals like Pharoh, were warned and also told the truth but there were things...such as power or pride that prevented them from accepting the truth. In other words it is the person with no alterior motive that can see clearly...in other words honest hearted.
Separate names with a comma.