Black Hole Questions

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by KilljoyKlown, Aug 31, 2011.

  1. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    The main question I want to ask is about the concept of a singularity. I believe this is only a mathematical concept an not an actual reality of what happens when a black hole is created. I believe a black hole is still nothing but highly compressed matter. That being the case means we get compression at the subatomic level of matter. I want to know where matter draws the line at compression for a solar mass black hole? Does it stop at compressing neutrons and protons down into a quark soup, and if so when might it gain enough mass to continue the compression down another level?

    It does seem possible that not all black holes are equal in how compressed their matter might be. We only can only see what happens to matter to the point at which a black hole is first made. After that we have no way to track what happens to the matter as the black hole grows in mass. From everything I've read all black hole matter is treated as the same whether it's a solar sized BH or a supermassive over a billion solar mass BH.

    I suspect it's not the same and would like to know if I'm alone in thinking this way?
     
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  3. arauca Banned Banned

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    I am just adding to your question; If the matter get compressed were does the energy go. beside one blast of light ?
     
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  5. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    "one blast of light" doesn't quite describe the complete energy release during the the creation of a black hole. I seem to remember reading that most of the energy is radiated away in the form of neutrinos as part of the supernova that's creating the black hole. But yeah! A more complete understanding of where all the energy goes would be nice.
     
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  7. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    As far as we know, the compression doesn't stop until everything is reduced to a soup of their absolute base components (whatever that happens to be).

    Can't say if that's a possibility. I am not aware of any models that support that idea however.

    Correct. The only tool we have at the moment to follow what happens beyond the event horizon is via math.

    I wouldn't place any bets on it, but I would be more curious as to why you think it's even a possibility?
     
  8. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    Well we are able to see the different stages of highly compressed matter. For example a white dwarf compresses atoms. It actually shrinks the electron cloud around the nucleolus of the atoms, but not enough to eliminate it. The next stage of compression is the neutron star where the electrons are compressed out of existence and we have mostly neutrons with maybe a few protons packed together. After that we have compression that cause the initial black hole. A black hole is defined as having gravity high enough so that light cannot escape once it has passed the event horizon. At that point all we can do is track the mass of the black hole. However I don't see any reason not to believe that compression doesn't continue in discreet steps as the pressure builds up do to additional mass being added to the black hole during it's life cycle whatever that may be.
     
  9. superstring01 Moderator

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    Oh. . . I sorta thought this was going to be about something else.

    //moves along

    ~String
     
  10. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    I think I see what you are getting at. The smallest black hole and the largest black hole both have enough gravity to massively warp space-time (thus creating the black hole), and this amount of space-time bending force is in theory more than sufficient to maximally break down matter (to the best of our knowledge of course). But that's just how the current models of black holes show what's happening. Reality has a habit of correcting models.
     
  11. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    I'm open to other suggestions. I can't think of anything about black holes I don't find interesting and worth talking about.
     
  12. superstring01 Moderator

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    Kidding with you my friend.

    You know, on a side note, I don't know if I've just never paid attention or if you've been pod-personed lately, but I have highly enjoyed your posts in the past few days. Many of which I haven't responded to, but have nonetheless read with interest and/or amusement (whichever is apropos).

    Back on the subject--And keep in mind that I'm responding to this when I should be finishing my research for a paper I'm writing for class. I'm on APA citation four, when I need ten. And let me tell you, I hate doing citations (thank god for Summons search avec auto-citations)--I find few subjects more interesting than Singularities. The simpleton in me says that information must be destroyed, but Hawkings has recently recanted his earlier statement on the matter and avers that, truly, information is retained.

    I'm no scientific genius. I have a college algebra class coming up and the thought of it gives me the shits. I hate math, so I can't even come close to a salient argument as to why I think information is destroyed, but something about the nature of a singularity makes me feel that there's just no way information is retained. Too bad Ben's not here to set me straight.

    Ahhhh well............

    ~String
     
  13. superstring01 Moderator

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    AHHH. Me too!

    And, again, I have to refer back to the "I suck at math" part of me. . . but it just seems like: Okay, yeah. It's super-dee-duper compressed matter and a lot of gravity. Why does there need to be some nexus into another universe, or a wormhole to the other side of ours? Why can't it just be really compressed Fermions and Bosons all squished together?

    ~String
     
  14. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    Aah! I remember when I was young once (I don't want to say long ago) because it really doesn't seem that long ago. If it wasn't for a body getting older you'd never give it a thought. Good luck with the algebra. I'd say if you have a goal you are trying for, don't let a bad subject screw with you, hire a tutor for however long you need. It will be the best thing you can do for yourself. Later on in life the thing that really counts is the degree that proves you were able to complete the education project you started.

    As far as Hawking goes, he found a solution to a problem. Whether it's the right solution or not remains to be seen, but for now it works.
     
  15. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah! Kind of like thinking there has to be some kind of afterlife. I am in no hurry to find out and I feel the same about flying into a black hole. As far as my other posts, I hope you haven't missed the Jokes section, I've been trying to spice it up with pictures.

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  16. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    Yes it does, however for most of us that only happens long after were dead and somebody else gets the credit for it.

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  17. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    A singularity presents a problem due to the almost absurdity of it. The bigger problem is that there is no known force that can stop the continued compression of matter inside the event horizon. Even the Pauli Exclusion Principle is overcome and fermions can occupy the same space - like all of them and then that will continue to be compressed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2011
  18. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    What makes it absurd? Actually, what is objective absurd (seeing as that's how the word is being used)?

    That's why matter breaks down until there is no smaller component.
     
  19. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Being a glory hunter is a rough business I must say.
     
  20. wlminex Banned Banned

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    . . . consider how "space" would appear to an 'occupant' of a black hole (if possible) . . . . everything observed outside the blackhole would appear to be "expanding" . . . not too disimilar from what we observe from our present vantage point. . . . worth thinking about.

    wlminex
     
  21. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    Are you basing that statement on something you read? In any event why would you think that particular point of view would make everything outside the event horizon look like it's expanding. The only reason we have for believing in expansion is do to the red-shift of all light from distant galaxies. Even that belief is still open to interpretation as far as I'm concerned.
     
  22. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    How can we tell when we are at a point with no smaller components? I'm not convinced that hypothesized preons are the smallest component of matter, and we don't even know for sure that they exist. I can't even imagine an instrument that would allow us to know for sure.
     
  23. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    We may never be able to see. M-theory seems to think that it's a soup of strings.
     

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