Blame The Russians?

Discussion in 'Conspiracies' started by Bowser, Dec 20, 2016.

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Are the Russians to blame for Trump's victor?

  1. Yeah, they rule everything, including political choices.

    2 vote(s)
    20.0%
  2. They hacked the DNC and showed us the truth. Yes, they are to blame.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. They played a role, somehow, some way, we just know it.

    2 vote(s)
    20.0%
  4. No, they are simply political victims of the Democratic Party blame game.

    1 vote(s)
    10.0%
  5. They played no role and are having a good laugh at our politics and media

    5 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Russia is still a dictatorship.
     
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  3. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    If there is evidence that Russia hacked the DNC servers, it had better be strong and specific. After all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Perhaps this is why the intelligence community is reluctant to release anything. They know that what they have is weak and inconclusive.
     
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  5. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

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    13,199
    Or, perhaps they expect the government to trust them to do their jobs... And are unsure how to handle a president elect who trusts his own "smarticles" over the advice of several top intelligence agencies
     
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  7. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,875
    LOL...You can't make a cogent argument; so you are reduced to ad hominem and other sorts of fallacious argument. Moreover, you have resorted to making stuff up, i.e. lying, You comrade are the one who brought up the issue of the USSR and you keep bringing it up. You need to begin being being honest. But then you don't have a case. It's a catch 22, isn't it?

    Unfortunately for you comrade the facts are very clear.
     
  8. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    I like how you use critical thinking only when it's convenient for you.
    GOP servers too. Only they didn't release that stuff.
     
  9. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Well, there is nothing extraordinary about the Russian government hacking computers and spreading misinformation. They have been doing that for a very long time. And if you listen or read, you would know that all American intelligence agencies are in agreement. Moreover, the independent private company involved in cyber security has caught the Ruskies in action. So you have all American intelliegnce agencies and the private security firm which examined the hacked computers are all in agreement. They all accuse the Russians.

    Now if you are expecting America's security agencies to release their sources and methods, that's not going to happen for obvious reasons. We aren't going to jeopardize our sources, nor should we.
     
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    24,272
    There is of course obvious and substantial evidence - we can see that.
    And there's nothing at all extraordinary about the claim. Why would you think so?
    And the intelligence community almost never releases this kind of material, for obvious reasons.
     
  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    24,272
    It's not a matter of understanding them. It's a matter of them being indistinguishable from your sincere posting.
    Good for them, we wish them well.

    Back to the topic, which was Russian hacking and undermining of US political campaigns during a major election.
     
  12. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    3,665
    In this case, you have been able to make the difference. So, the intellectual requirements to understand the difference have not been too high for you. And that some more subtle points cannot be understood by some readers is not harmful. The best books for children are those which remain interesting reading for adults too, because they are full of such subtle points.
    Only a power which at least declares and promises that it will not do such things has any moral right to blame others for doing such things.

    This is, by the way, the thing the US has to learn during the next years in many other questions too. The world no longer accepts any "exceptional" position for the US. It is a powerful state, and will remain powerful, but this does not give the US any exceptional rights. If the US continues to hack worldwide, it has to live now with other states hacking in the US. If the US continues to influence foreign elections, it has to live now with other states influencing US elections. If the US continues to support, with money and equipment, terrorist organizations around the world, there will be in some future support, with money and equipment, of whatever terrorist organizations inside the US.

    This is what it means for the US to switch from the unipolar world order, where the US was allowed to do everything without any penalty, to a multipolar world order, where the US has to accept equal rights at least with the other big powers.

    And the US media would better accept this change too, and behave appropriately. Else the world will reject them as hypocrites. As it already is:

     
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  13. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    Very convinient of them. We have proof but we cant show it to you, because its super secret. Suuuure
     
  14. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

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    To think, it was those crazy Republicans who were always fighting off those darned Russians...in the past. I am so losing any faith I once had in my government, media, and the people around me. Yes, the CIA is sooo believable. No evidence of deception in their history. Take it on faith.
     
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  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    24,272
    So? Why are you posting irrelevancy?

    American citizens have little interest in whether the Russians were behaving immorally or not. Putin will do whatever he can get away with, that's a given.

    What we have here is possible American complicity in the Russian hacking of an American election. That's the issue.
    You talk as if the only motive were tit for tat.
    That vulnerability exists, and always has, regardless of whether the US does that stuff any more or not - there's no deal here whereby if the US behaves so will others, and there never was. The issue for an American citizen is the US protecting itself - self defense - from what appear to be its own political executives and government officials colluding with foreign powers.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    24,272
    There are people who have been trying to wake you up, telling you the truth as they saw it, discussing matters in good faith, and coming to well-supported conclusions borne out by thirty years of event. You can find them if you want to, place your faith in people who don't lie for a living and have a track record of insight and accurate description. There's lots of them, and they could use the help.

    If you want to.
     
  17. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    lol
     
  18. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Well, at least you still have faith in Putin.
    Let's do a poll:

    Are the Russians innocent?

    1) Yes. The Russians have only our best interests at heart, and would never do anything to harm us.
    2) Yes, the CIA, NSA, DHS and FBI are all lying to us to smear those poor, innocent Russians.
    3) Yes, the Russians are completely powerless to pull something like this off - FOX News said so.
    4) No, but they helped to get Trump elected, and that's all that matters!

    So which will it be?
     
  19. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    That's considered a success in some circles.
     
  20. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    51,799
    Seems more likely than not. Does cyberwarfare exist? Yes. Is Russia engaged in it? Yes, they have at least two departments devoted to it. Do they have an interest in the outcome of the election? Yes. Do they regularly do far worse things as a matter of course? Yup.
     
  21. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    3,154
    1) Russian people , I don't believe they would not harm us. Their population is lower then ours, they have more territory then we , so they would not care to occupy us. Russian were our allies during the world war 11 , The political system of making a world under communism is over ( the world had enough of communism ).
    I believe since 1991 they ( Russian ) care more for the democratic system .

    Now let me ask , why are we pushing our system in everybody's thought . If they want to be conservative in their moral system .
    Why do we want to put them down always .
     
  22. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    3,154
    Do we have interest in their election outcome ?
    Are we in cyberwarefare, do we soy on other country ?
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    12,755
    I disagree. Russian _people_ are pretty much like US people - most are pretty decent. It's their government that is the issue.
    Then why are they invading other countries to expand?
    Yep. And we made sure that we dropped two atomic bombs on Japan in part to warn Russia that they better not try anything after the war. That, of course, led to the arms race.
    I don't want to "put them down" because they "want to be conservative in their moral system." They can have any moral system they want. However, I oppose their cyberattacks on the US. Do you?
     

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