Can animals(non humans) lie?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by davewhite04, Jul 23, 2008.

  1. Jetex Jim Registered Member

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    I agree, but the terror would be greater if they knew what they were in for.

    Having watched complex defensive behaviour in birds, repeatedly diving on radio controlled model gliders, despite an abscence of any real threat I reckon it pays not to try and infer too much.

    It's very easy to assign conciousness as an actor, but animal behaviour can be very complicated, and why not? If we can accept that creatures has physically complex as humans can evolve from chemistry, can not evolved behaviour be equally complex.
     
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  3. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    I'm sure they have a basic idea..

    Sure but how much of our behavior is evolved ? I really think we not all that different.


    PS
    Please lets not discuss hunting here.
     
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  5. Jetex Jim Registered Member

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    Yes good point, birds are flocking creatures, the group has a whole seems to have a set of imperratives, maybe that facilitates transferrence of learned beahviour.
     
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  7. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    In other words, something synonymous to culture.
     
  8. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    This should be in Biology & Genetics by the way.
     
  9. Jetex Jim Registered Member

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    I think we are probably in agreement here, but humans ARE more complex and capable of acts much beyond the basic survival tennants, none of the selfish gene merchants has ever really touched that one.

    On the face of it humans need only be that bit better than the next ape. But somehow, and for some reason they are much smarter, and much longer lived. Where the survival imperative came from for the huge human blank slate is still a mystery, I think

    The length of human life span is a key question, short life cycle creatures --most non-humans--can tune adaptive behaviour much faster. As a rule it would seem essential to keep childhood as short has possible and make generation frequency much higher, under twenty years. But its not, why not? Is a pretty good question.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2008
  10. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    Well, I agree to that. But I'm of the opinion that the development of language has a great deal to do with this difference, if not everything.

    Got to go now though, talk to you later.
    Btw. welcome to Sciforums

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  11. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    A truly wonderful book on this kind of thing is
    When Elephants Weep: The Emotional Lives of Animals by Jeffrey M. Masson.
     
  12. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, absolutely. What I meant was that if we begin moving certain animal behaviors that involve deception into some category different from lying we must also evaluate many human behaviors where, I believe, misinformation is deliberately being given out by the human in question AND YET they may not be consciously aware they are doing it.
     
  13. Jetex Jim Registered Member

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    Niettzsche said something like, if memory has a quarrel with self regard, self regard has a tendency to win.

    By which I take it that the memory of the truth can be changed to faciltate sanity, if that's what neccessary. I would suggest that this must happen below the level of conciousness.
     
  14. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    I concur.
     
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Animals deceive in the course of carrying out a strategy laid out in advance.

    Examples: predators that show themselves in one place, using the prey reaction to facilitate attack at a preplanned location or in a predetermined manner elsewhere. Monkeys that use false alarm calls to scatter competition for food. Birds that relocate food caches if observed in the act of caching. Polar bears that cover their noses when visible and significant while waiting for prey, but not otherwise while waiting for prey. And so forth.

    I once knew a dog that had been taught to wink one eye on command - the action took some effort, appeared a bit difficult for the animal. Occasionally, not often but if irritated and especially if asked for performance several times in a short while, the dog would turn its head to one side and blink both eyes (the one turned away, invisible to the observer with the dog treat), and then turn back and expect the treat.
     
  16. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    I saw something like that on Animal Planet today.
    A woman put a dog snack on the ground in an empty room (only a chair).
    Then sat down facing the dog and the snack and instructed the dog not to eat the snack. The dog obeyed.
    But when the woman closed her eyes the dog obviously became conflicted.
    After, apparently, some doubt the dog got the snack.
    The dog figured out the woman couldn't see him taking the snack because her eyes were closed.
    It means the dog can relate to people; placing itself in their shoes.
    Seems to be the result of consciousness to me.
     
  17. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    Great thread, interesting stuff, thanks!

    Rick
     
  18. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    Hmmm I think this is Philosophy because it is ideas surrounding us, people and animals, what makes us different? That is what I'm interested in.

    Not physically(genetics/biology) but mentally.
     
  19. Jetex Jim Registered Member

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    Very interesting point. The ability to place oneself in someone elses shoes could be a 'purpose' for conciousness.

    Whether the dog 'experiences' the sight of the woman with closed eyes as we do, is another question. Its experience might be something more like the following:

    However I've stared enough into the eyes of my beloved old dog, now long departed, to feel that there was 'someone' staring back at me. He was a fellow who's life was ruled more by emotion than reason, and he was rather pre-disposed toward the recreational hunting of sheep. Concious I really don't know, but he was a bloody good friend.
     
  20. shorty_37 Go! Canada Go! Registered Senior Member

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    LOL My dog does exactly the same thing. He actually looks the other way like you aren't even speaking.
     
  21. Roman Banned Banned

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    Don't dogs do that because eye contact is seen as a challenge?
     
  22. Jetex Jim Registered Member

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    Some interesting ideas, within this thread.
    1) Emotions in animals.
    It seems possible that emotions in animals, might 'supercharge' the survival imperrative.
    'Terror', might be just there to get adrenaline going.
    'Love', might be just there to reinforce the attachment to a desired food source.
    Because we assign such value to emotions we think it's astonishing that animals would share them. But, to put it another way, feelings of terror or love may 'just' be down to the way the brain primes us to a particular opportunity/threat.

    2) Learned group behaviour.
    Maybe some of it is passed on genetically.
    Thinking about those blue tits and the milk bottles. Still looking for a purpose for that 85% 'junk' DNA in the human genome! I wonder if there is as much a percentage of unattributed DNA in other creatures?
    (This idea could be tested experimentally, I offer it free to anyone looking for a PhD subject

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    )

    Ooops time to go to work!
     
  23. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    Hmm ok, doesn't matter much to me anyway. I just noticed that most of the conversation (read "all of it"

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