Can animals(non humans) lie?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by davewhite04, Jul 23, 2008.

  1. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    I don't think there is any good reason to assume larger mammals (at least) are not conscious. I mean, based on what ?

    One of my kitten constantly looks me in the eye. He probably tries to figure me out, he's probably trying to learn my facial expressions in relation to my emotional state.
    Now you could again ask if this is done consciously.. but meh.. do humans ?
    The only "conscious" part about us is our ability to use language. It structures our thoughts.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Jetex Jim Registered Member

    Messages:
    68
    Maybe, but there are non-verbal languages, as used by insects and such. Does that make them conscious? (I'm not saying they are not, but maybe only the swarm is conscious, not individually)

    Its an interesting point though, to what extent are we only conscious, because we have a means to talk about the concept. Obviously Pinkner and such have suggested that verbal ability is hardwired at a genetic level, and perhaps lends a structure to thought. Maybe it is an essential component of consciousness?

    And maybe only conciousness knows of a past, and with verbal skills we can address the past, through writing, and hear from the past through ancient texts. But, to an extent we can 'see' the past through ancient art, maybe art is the proof of conciousness, rather than language.

    BTW, I think science should always inform philosophy, and vice versa. Makes it a little hard to categorise threads, but I've encountered worse problems...
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,236
    So when you are not communicating you are unconcious? Or would you say that when you are not communicating with others you are conversing with yourself? So you are in a continuous conversation...
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,236
    All animals seem to be aware of their surroundings, does this require self conciousness?
     
  8. Jetex Jim Registered Member

    Messages:
    68
    Well, that little internal 'self' voice is always wittering away, in fact it seems that non-verbalised thoughts do in fact reach the nerves at the vocal chords...

    Question regarding 'self', (that internal monolgue), is it part of the decision making process, or is it just providing commentary, rationalisation, on what the unconcious has decided to do? (see Mr Volition by Greg Egan for more on this) Some experiments, where individuals have been asked to choose, and then explain their choice have been interesting--When the 'choice' has been sneekily changed, the individual can be seen 'explaining' away a choice he didn't actually make...

    Plants turn to follow the sun, are they conscious? I would say not.
     
  9. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,236
    That is interesting.

    I find this phrase "He speaks his mind" to be true, how do we know that someone is actually speaking their mind?

    I was actually thinking about this before you posted. I don't know enough about how the Suns energy works with plant life but I would guess the Sun is the director in this case, but not so in the animal kingdom.

    Just my 2 pence.
     
  10. Jetex Jim Registered Member

    Messages:
    68
    Indeed, but how often do we actually have hazy half formed views on stuff, then, when we are oblidged to explain ourselves, only then must we get a hold of a subject and really get our heads around it.

    Yes, language is useful, if I can explain something to someone else, then I know I really understand it.

    Interestingly the German language has two words for knowledge, and distinguishes between knowing something, as if by rote, and understanding it.
     
  11. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,236
    I didn't ask if language was useful.

    Instinct is a useful word.
     
  12. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    Who says that ?
    I said that the only conscious part of us is our ability to use language.
    Probably, our brains evolved a bit since inventing language as well. Most likely based on this ability and enhancing it.
     
  13. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    Not all animals might be able to be aware of the fact their they are a separate entity form their environment. I'm thinking insects..
    But there is really no way to know for sure.. seems to me.
     
  14. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,236
    Okay, the question still stands I think, only it would be worded "When you are not using the ability..."
     
  15. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,236
    Perhaps, but some insects seem pretty self aware to me.

    For example. I have a spider in my place somewhere, when we engage it freezes, when I look away it moves, most of the time anyway. There is a air of unpredictability in its actions which certainly makes me think more.
     
  16. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    No, the plants actively turn towards the sun.
    Hormones are activated in cells on the dark side of the plant which eventually leads to a partial breaking down of the rigid cell wall.
    The cells can then absorb more fluid which provides pressure in the right direction.
     
  17. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    You have the ability to use language because it's in your genes. You can't turn off an ability.
     
  18. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    That's not evidence of self-awareness.. it's just reactions to external stimuli. Such as shadows cast, sudden movements, air pressure. No self-awareness is required to do what the spider does.

    Animals are perfectly aware of their environment, even aware of relating themselves to the environment. But to realize that your are a separate entity from the environment is something completely different, it's self-awareness.
     
  19. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,236
    But it seems obvious to me that the Sun is the director, if it wasn't there then the plant wouldn't do anything.
     
  20. Jetex Jim Registered Member

    Messages:
    68
    Well, I try and explain something in the context of, how does it enhance survival of an organism. My view is that, conciousness must have a purpose in terms of increasing the utility of an organism.


    Seems resonable enough, give a man a tool and he'll find ways of using it you never thought of.

    The ones who used language the best, would turn out to be leaders, even more so if they were elequent and strong. The leaders, they tell me, get the most mates, and so get to reproduce more. Any adaptations that used the brain/language better would reproduce more...
     
  21. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,236
    You can choose not to use an ability.

    But if what you mean is that because we have the ability, even if it's dormant, that's what may make us concious beings?
     
  22. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,236
    I guess we don't know this for sure.
     
  23. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    Plants that germinate in the dark show the same behavior as described above, only then in all cells.
    Plants that grow in dark places shoot up quickly because of it in an attempt to reach a sunny spot.

    To say that the Sun is the director is nonsensical. The Sun is not conscious.
    And if we, for a second, work with your assertion you will have to be consequent and admit that the Sun then directs all life on Earth.. or at least the overwhelming majority.
     

Share This Page