Case: c20 vs Atheists

Actually I have to say anonymous that I find you to be very open as well. Often you think I am directing stuff at you when actually I have quoted someone else and am refering to someone else. I see very clearly where you are coming from in this discussion anonymous. The last thing on my mind is to attack you personally. I, like Lori_7 am only really interested in discussing faith in a forum called 'Religion'. Sometimes it gets really tough for me out here because I am dealing with the very worst attacks against my faith that I could deal with. Atheistic arguments are extremely convincing and are very well thought out. Atheists have gone to a lot of trouble to discredit the bible. My faith is attacked quite heavily here. Very heavily in fact. Sometimes it gets too much and I had to take a break. Get my head together, focus etc.
Please do not think I would attack you personally anyway anonymous. Thats what I really wanted to say.

peace

c20 :m:

 

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c2O,

Hooray! I'm so happy that you're back.

*big shit eatin' grin*

Love,

Lori

 

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Huh? Good grief Lori, I'm not trying to be cruel and sadistic as you keep suggesting with this martyr thing you seem to have going. But look - you said:

So ''we" (I'm not necessarily an atheist, but more on that in a second) are wrong to accuss your mythological being as being malicious and sadistic . . . ok, but right before that you said --

Can't you see the hypocrisy, the contradiction between those statements?!

Now, as to your "you atheists are always'' -- first off, you get angry if I lump you in with Nazi Christian Neo-Con's, but its ok to lump all atheists together? There is WIDE variety in the non-theist community, just like in the Christian 1/3 of humanity. But also, I'm really more of an agnostic, to be specific *a militant agnostic* ---- Let me explain.

A theist says "there IS a god"

A atheist classically says ''there is NOT a god"

An agnostic classically says "I don't know if there is one or not"

A militant agnostic says "I don't know, and neither do you"

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----Thank you (taking a bow) that is all mine.

Fact is, I'm not so arrogant as to say *I KNOW THE ANSWER(s)*. I think a god(s)/goddess(es) are unlikely, but not impossible. I know that the biblically depicted vision of a god strikes me as contradictory and somewhat evil, and therefore even more unlikely . . . but I don't KNOW. There may be a jealous angry, insecure and vengeful god. Or lots of them, or demons and fairy's, or tons of animal gods, or alien gods --- who knows. My experience and gut simply tell me its pretty unlikely. But again, I would fight for your right to believe anything you want. But I would/will/do also fight for my right to have none of my tax dollars, our laws . . . reflect, support or detract from ANY specific mythological system.

 

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I can see where you would think that, but that is not the way I see it. Firstly, I do not see it as malevolent to destroy a world that is full of sin which inflicts pain upon and eventually kills it's inhabitants. I see it as a benevolent act to destroy such a cruel and uncomfortable world. It had a purpose, and it's served it's purpose...which was to give us knowledge of good and evil and the consequences of both....now get rid of it, and let's move on to something better. Secondly, He's not just destroying it and leaving it at that, but destroying it so that something better can then take it's place. His Kingdom will be a place of eternal life without sin....no pain, no suffering, no sickness, no violence, no death. This is what He will provide for us, and that sounds benevolent to me...that's a ok with me. I want it. I want something better than this. I don't want to live in sin anymore...forever...it sucks...and when it's served His purpose, and His will is done with it, then let it burn, and bring on the new.

Also, I may be wrong, but I think that God's wrath IS the consequence of sin according to His law. And in that case, though He created the law, and allowed for the destruction according to His will, it is actually the effects of OUR sin, because of OUR choices, that cause the destruction. Just like if you look at our environment, and all of the hazards and abuses and degradation...pollution...it's all due to sin. The reason that we destroy this earth is all in the name of greed, sloth, envy, pride, wrath...it is these intentions that lead to pollution and the destruction of our environment. A denial of God, and a denial that this is actually His creation...a lack of respect for what we've been given.

My bad, I thought you were an atheist...sorry...didn't mean to lump. I can accept the agnostic stance just fine. Actually I respect it a lot. At least one has the humility to admit that they don't have an answer. I was agnostic before I got an answer. The military stance though I do not agree with, as you are so arrogant as to say that just because you don't know the answer, that no one else does either. You don't know that is true. As a matter of fact it's not true...I honestly have met God...I know that there is a God. Just because I can't prove it to you or "show" Him to you doesn't mean that I do not know Him and that what I attest to is not true. You say that you would fight for my right to believe anything I want, but it seems to me that in being militant, you are taking my right away, or assuming that it is a fallacy, when you in fact have no idea if it is true or not. Do you see that just because you don't know if there is a God or not as of yet in your own life does in no way mean that no one else does either? I know...Gravity, I'm telling you man, I have had some shit go down that would spin you around just like it did me. And it has been proven to me beyond any doubt whatsoever that God is real. Just because we haven't shared the same experience doesn't mean that mine is to be discounted or discredited as false or even misunderstood. Do you see that?

Love,

Lori

ps...thanks for being nicer.

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Gravity,

Would I be right in saying that you have two main issues, namely

1) God wipes human beings out apparently with no mercy whatsoever.
2) The government make you pay towards schemes that are sold on the basis of representing Christian values.

???

Assuming that I have read your last post correctly and can deduce those two point are your main points, I will attempt to explain the Christian view as I see it.

1) God wipes human beings out apparently with no mercy whatsoever.

If we accept the idea that God made us, i.e. we are his creations, rather like an artist may produce a work on a piece of canvas, one should also being able to accept that the artist can also destroy any one of his works without any fear of reproach even though it may pain him to do so. We see in Genesis6:5-8 that God was basically ashamed of the abomination that His creation had become. Everyone's thoughts were turned to evil things. Everyone that is except Noah. God likes Noah. Noah has faith in his God. His God is the maker of the heavens and the earth. God couldn't destroy this one little bit of good that was left in His eyes. Noah had faith in God. God couldn't let Noah down. God taught Noah how to build a great big boat which was pretty handy in a flood. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
Now you may say "So see, God judges people and then destroys them" but who are you my friend to say anything at all before your maker? You see reverence is due.

Genesis 6:5-8
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

In the same Bible, we find God sending His only begotten Son to earth as a human being. God promised that He would not flood the earth again and a new covenant was promised which would save man. The covenant was His own Son's blood. To pay for it all. To redeem His whole creation. To wash it clean. Purify it, purify us.
For those that believe, this becomes reality for us quite quickly with the Holy Spirit's help. For us that believe it is the truth. God is love. Jesus was God's gift to us. To purify us by His blood. The price was awful. Truly. The power and the glory all His. Truly. Risen.


The second point about the government...

Who knows why they do what they do? I pay really high taxes too. Some people campaign. Some people dont. What can you do? It's the government. Ask them why they want your money for certain things? Try and dissassociate what the government use in their campaigns with the actual message of Jesus. I do not mean to sound patronsing on that last sentence.

peace

c20

 

I do see that . . . and again, and I *really do* know exactly where you are. I *Really have* been there!

You seem to want to discount my experiences as well. *I've been there* - I was just certain that I knew God, and I had no doubt whatsoever. But I kept reading, thinking, growing, learning - and had some other experiences which I know know all fall under the catagory of a ''peak experience''. And when you have a peak experience, with the influence of a specific culture/mythology on you -- you KNOW it is real, even if somebody on the other side of the planet, dancing around a fire barefoot can have an equally legitimate and influencial experience that makes them KNOW their snake-god is real.

I'm not trying to be cruel to you at all. You've gone into great detail about what you know is ''real''. I'm simply doing the same here.

What you said, is equally true for me "Just because we haven't shared the same experience doesn't mean that mine is to be discounted or discredited as false or even misunderstood. Do you see that?"

 

Yikes! So I am morally within my rights to kill my children?! I don't think so. And please don't throw a circular argument into that about how somehow *I* didn't create my children but God did. In the context of this argument, it would be justified for my wife and I to destroy our works ''without fear of reproach even though it may pain (us) to do so". I think society would be well justified in sending us to the slammer, and I could never live with myself if I harmed my children . . . or in fact ANYBODY's children.

So much for being omniscient and all-powerful then. And hell, even if a god couldn't see the future - seems like a loving god could send down a golden ray and just solve all the problems, instead of spreading pain, suffering, horror and death as a ''solution''!

Its pretty obvious why they do what they do. Iran pushes Islam on people, the USA pushes Christianity on people. But at least we are not at the Iranian level of theocracy . . . yet. Pay high taxes? I don't have a problem with paying taxes, hell - taxes in the USA are actually quite low. I do have a problem with them promoting whatever religion happens to be in fashion at the moment, and some other things we fund in liu of basic human needs, but we all have various issues with how our taxes are spent - so I think we are all in the same boat there.

 

If your child went around killing and raping and doing all kinds of evil mercilessly in society, it would pain you that the police marksmen took him down but you couldn't blame the police marksmen. There you go, nothing circular for you there. You would of course wish that your child had not been filled with evil or at least dropped his weapon when the police marksmen shouted at them. The people who were alive at the time of the flood (with the exception of Noah) were filled with every kind of evil. These people did not love one another. It was probably a merciful act to send the flood given the type of society these peoples lived in given that they were only filled with evil thoughts.

Because God was ashamed that His world had become filled with evil doesn't meaqn to say He did not know it would turn out that way. I guess He still thought that the gift of life given us was worth sending His Son to pay for it all to be made holy again. God had a plan you see. Jesus' death and resurection was that plan having come to fruition. God's Son suffered the penalty for our sins. You cannot ask for fairer than that.

Do you agree with me then that the message of Jesus ought not be discounted just because the Government use the moralistic arguments in the bible to push through various funding initiatives?

peace

c20

 

Just a few random things....

God hates sin...because sin hurts us...and He loves us. So His wrath is intended to abolish sin, not us. It is His will that we live without it, and so we will, and so according to His law, the transgression of which is the sin that kills us. Living according to His law then will assure eternal life. But, He wants us to live this way voluntarily, of our own free will, and in knowledge of why it must be this way. He doesn't want for us to just take His word for it, or to be forced into it. I don't know that it's possible given His law and creation that we can be forced into it, for Satan was the most beautiful and powerful angel in heaven and fell...Adam and Eve were in a garden of paradise and fell...He wants us to understand why things are the way they are according to His law.

The only people left at the end on this earth are those who have taken the mark of the beast. This will be a genetic alteration...taken voluntarily...that will kill your spirit...cutting it off completely from God's Holy Spirit...but that will leave the flesh immortal. That is why the Bible says that in those days men will seek death but will not find it. The only way to destroy this flesh, is to burn it, and it will disintegrate. This is the end times lie...the lie of the antichrist and the false prophet...promising rebirth and immortality...not of the Spirit and by the Spirit as Jesus taught...but of the flesh and by the flesh. A false saviour, a false rebirth, a false eternal life.

Sooooo, do you believe then, that it is impossible to know the answer about God? I mean, given your militant stance, it seems to imply that it's impossible to know, if you indeed believe that no one knows....in the entire history of mankind, and the entire population of the planet...no one has ever known. And if it is impossible, then what's the point even contemplating it? I guess it's this militant stance that made me think you were an atheist, because you believe that even if there is a God, it's impossible to know it. And what kind of God would that be exactly? And what would the meaning of our lives be then? And where would the answers come from then? And what kind of God would let us live in an f'd up world like this one without any answers? Or would let us live in an f'd up world like this without a damn good reason for it, and forever? And if we were to have a spirit, but no knowledge of it, then what good would it do us? What would it's purpose be? Bottom line, it sounds to me, based upon what you've said out here, and especially in response to those who do believe in God or say they know Him like me, that you've already made up your mind. And if you've already made up your mind, then it would be contradictory for you to be searching for answers...to be searching for the truth. Is that accurate?

Also, will you tell us about your "peak" experiences? Pleeeeeeeeeeeease....

Love you,

Lori

 

Hi Lori

Thanks

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I just needed a break from all the accusations of being a murderous, sociopathic delusionist for a while. It's amazing the lengths some people will go to, to discredit the bible and those that believe in it.
I am happy to be back too. Rest did me good

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Love

c20

 

having never ate shit, what is a big shit eating grin, must look pretty nasty.

 

I've never understood that phrase, either. Please believe me, if I was eating shit, the last thing you'd see on my face is a grin!

Gravity, I'm also fascinated by your "peak experience". Since I must have had one myself, I'm interested in your source for writings on the subject.

(And thank you for ameliorating your tone.)

 

That is completely off topic thought. The question was one of the a creator always being justified destroying their creation. You compared your ''loving'' god slaughtering billions of lives to an artist destroying their artwork. This is a far cry from a policeman having to kill a threat to society.

No, I don't think that the those messages ought to be discounted because of how our government uses them. I think there are many other much better reasons to discount it! Or at the very least to recognize that the Torah, the Quran, Richard Bach's "Illusions"" and etc . . . are at just as unworthy of being discounted.

 

"Religions, Values, and Peak Experiences" by Abraham H. Maslow is one of the better more modern works on the subject. But he did not invent the term or usage, if you search around you'll find lots of info and comparisons of the peak experiences encountered by people in religious ceremonies (all religions), psychedelics usage, climbing a mountain, making a goal, etc.

 

Hi...I'm all butting in and shit, but just to say that, don't you think you're being a little melodramatic? I mean, another way to say "God slaughtering billions of lives" is to say "people die". Yep, people die...yep.

Why do people die? Because of sin in the world. Why does God hate sin? Cause it kills people, and He wants us to live forever. Soooooo, why is He going to bring this world to an end? So we don't have to live in sin and die anymore, but live eternally without it in His Kingdom instead. An eternal Kingdom of love, peace, and purity. Sounds much better yes????

I think that the reason many people see death as such a horrible thing too is because this flesh is all that they know. Some think that when this flesh dies, that's all there is, and the person ceases to exist. But that is not true, as we are eternal spirits. We don't cease to exist once our flesh dies. This flesh is just a step along the way. People wanting to cling to this flesh as their only hope...their only life....this is what is deadly to their spirit....this belief is what will lead people to take the mark of the beast.

You know, it says in the Bible that those people who have taken the mark will then turn around and seek death, but will not be able to achieve it because of taking the mark. They will seek death for relief, but will not find it. You know, this world is such that many today and in history have also sought death as a source of relief. They hated this world enough, and had felt emptiness and pain and loneliness to the point where death was more attractive than life to them....a relief. And that's why God would never want us to live in a world such as this for forever, and will not have us to do so.

I went to visit my grandpa in the hospital the other day. He's 85 years old, and he has pageant's disease, which affects your bones somehow, and he had fractured his leg a while back, and was using crutches to get around until it healed. Well, he fell on his crutches and broke the bone even worse, so they surgically implanted a steel rod in his leg. This happened the day before Thanksgiving, so he is still in the hospital recovering and getting therapy. So anyway, I was visiting him the other night and he was in so much pain. Not just his leg, but his back hurt, and apparently he hadn't pooped in like a week, and he had contracted a slight case of pnuemonia, and he wouldn't eat...hadn't all day because his stomach was upset, and then there's the effects of the pain killers that they had him on....he was just so sick and tired and depressed. He's always, always been such an upbeat guy. A real whipper-snapper...that's what he'd say. And he's always been in such great health too, despite himself...lol...until now. And when I was sitting there with him, he said "I think I'm gonna die". And then the nurse came in to give him more morphine, and she asked him something....something like if there was anything she could do to make him feel better....and he made a motion of putting a gun to his head and firing. I was so disturbed by this....I've never ever seen him this depressed. But I don't blame him at all. He's miserable. I've felt that way myself, with less pain than he's in right now. When I was leaving I looked at him and said "Cheer up, would ya?" And then I laughed and told him I was kidding...and that I wished I could do something to make him feel better.

Then there's my grandma, who's had a series of strokes and now doesn't do much of anything except give him a bunch of grief. She's confused and has really bad memory problems and is depressed and scared because of it. To the point where she doesn't want to leave the house, and she can hardly function anymore mentally...won't cook or clean or shop, and certainly can't take care of grandpa now that he's hurt. She won't eat, and then she resents it when people do things for her, and acts like a baby about it. My mom had just cooked them dinner, and my aunt had gone to the grocery for them, but grandma, being stubborn wouldn't eat anything but a Frisch's cheeseburger and cole slaw. Grandpa was on his way to get them for her when he fell on his crutches and ended up in the hospital.

Anyway, I don't want them to suffer. To see them suffering is unbearable because I love them so much. And there comes a point in someone's suffering where if it is not going to cease or diminish, and the person's quality of life is so horrible and painful...like being tortured by life...that death would become merciful.

And it's all relative you know? I think that if we ever experienced what Heaven or His Kingdom were like, that we would then consider even the most comfortable and happy life here in this flawed world to be unbearable torture in comparison.

God loves us...and it hurts Him to see us suffer. We are His children, and He wants something so much better for us. I would never want to live in this world for forever. To have an eternal life in this world...in this body...no way. If this world and this body were the best that God could do, and the best that He could give, I think that I would have a hard time serving Him. And that's what you don't understand Gravity, is that this is not it. This was not meant to be forever. This is just a step along the way. This step has a divine purpose, and it's perfect in it's purpose, but it's purpose is not to be forever. Death is not only the consequence of sin, but a relief from it. Why? Because God is benevolent.

Love,

Lori

 

Lori, I started to once again break your quotes up into blocks and respond to each . . . but as I looked back at previous threads - I see that indeed there is a repetitious cycle of such going on. Lets move past it. I keep seeing some tired cliches used here. Here is a good list: http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/christiancliches.html

Just in the last 48 hours you've used cliche #'s: 4, 6, 8, 13 & 14.

Now, don't quibble over the exact words used - we're talking about the concept behind each cliche.

What do you think?

 

I didn't look at your list...I'm not interested in cliches. You may think that this is a joke...that I'm a joke. You can think what you want, but you have no reason to think that...it's the opposite of my intent, and my words. I don't have an agenda, and I'm not on some kind of campaign...I'm not looking to be accepted or to be "right". I'm just being honest, and if you can't appreciate that then its a shame. But it's not my problem, it's yours, so don't project.

Thanks,

Lori

 

I love the use of ''don't project'' as a way of ducking the issue! Anyways, I don't care if you have an agenda or are on a campaign or not. You keep pointing out where you think many of us are wrong, I'm simply doing the same for you. So don't project (oh, that felt good! <g>). You clearly cannot really learn or grow anymore, since you feel you've arrived at THE TRUTH - so I didn't think even if your read that list you would actually absorb any of its meaning. It was more for other readers of this list, to show how your using very tired, cliche and well-debunked arguments - over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over . . . and OVER!

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xxoo,
Grav

 

And of course you miss my entire point, and that is...I'm not using cliches, I'm speaking sincerely and from the heart. If there is one thing besides His love and power that you're made aware of in knowing Christ, it is how much you have to learn...how much you don't know...and just how wrong you can be. All of a sudden you find that for all you thought you knew, you're actually very ignorant. The reason that I seek His counsel is because I know this about myself, and I desire to learn from Him. If I thought I knew it all already, as you claim, then why would I seek His counsel? I've said this before...obviously you weren't listening...I'm shocked...but it's not about being right or wrong...and so you will not hear me using those terms out here. What I attest to is a personal relationship with God through Christ....it's not about being right....it's about a spiritual occurrence that happened to me....it's about a state of existence. And you'll never hear me claim to have all of the answers to the questions of the universe either. I simply know the One who does. Get it straight would you? Talking to you is such a drag because you are so arrogant that you don't even listen to what others say to you, and therefore you understand nothing. Maybe that's why you find that people say the same things over and over again to you...because you're not listening.

Love,

Lori

 

Wow Lori, here we are again. You judging me as ''actually very ignorant'', that you KNOW ''the one who does'', that "you're not listening'' . . . . and in the same message YOU tell ME ''you are so arrogant''.

Perhaps I am arrogant, but it clearly then takes one to know one sweetie.

And please, cut out the fake ''Love'' shit at the end of your rants. You are deeply confused if you think your words/actions can be as they are, but then that simply tossing that word at the end of it somehow reedems you or makes you non-judgemental!