Case: c20 vs Atheists

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by c20H25N3o, Nov 10, 2004.

  1. anonymous2 Registered Senior Member

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    There are divisions between "believer" and "non believer" for other religions/philosophies, so it's not just Christianity. I "know" why the division is. Faith and non-faith. You believe it because it makes you happy. We don't believe it because we think it's false.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2004
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  3. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    You make an assertion right here : Believers believe because it makes us happy.

    Then you contradict that assertion: We do not believe it because we think it is false.

    But seriously can you question the happiness of another without it sounding like sour grapes especially after asserting that they are indeed happy? Answer that if you can and for the record, you are correct, I am content inside. Very. Contentment is the secret to happiness.

    peace

    c20
     
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  5. anonymous2 Registered Senior Member

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    I responded to your question concerning the division between believers and non-believers. I should have expressed myself in a better way. I meant "The reason we don't believe is because we think it's false." Anyway, what do you want from me?

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    Do you expect me to express feelings which aren't my feelings? I just responded from my perspective. And without calling you a viper.

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    I apologize if I offended you.

    I know you're happy. And yes, I'm jealous.

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    Last edited: Nov 15, 2004
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  7. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    It is very hard to offend me unless I am feeling particulary sensitive which does happen from time to time. There is no need to be jealous of me. I am no different to you inside. We both have a heart and every other organ common to man.

    peace

    c20
     
  8. stretched a junkie's broken promise Valued Senior Member

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    1,244
    Yo c20 dudie,

    Hey man, what do I do with this tail of mine? You mean you aint got one?

    Ahem.
     
  9. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    hehe

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  10. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    You are assuming quite a bit aren't you? I do not believe in God and that Jesus was Him come to earth in the flesh because it makes me "happy". Happiness is an emotion of the flesh which is fickle as all hell. Here one minute, gone the next, and back again, depending upon circumstance after ever changing circumstance. There have been many, many times when my faith has left my flesh very, very unhappy...actually, in a fit of rage would be a more appropriate description. It's not always easy to hear the truth...especially about yourself. It's not alway easy to let your own will...the will of your flesh....to die unto God's will. It's not easy to crucify your flesh...for your flesh to die unto His Holy Spirit. For with Him, you give up your life to save it...the life of your flesh...and your flesh fights you every step of the way. It's not about being easy...nothing worthwhile ever is, is it? It's not about putting on some fake smile and exchanging "God bless you's" and clapping your hands out of time to some drab whitey Christian music cause it has no beat while your beaming because somehow this all makes you think that you're a "good" person. This is not a Sunday morning or Wednesday evening activity to me...this is not a social club...this is not a game. This is my life...my purpose for living...this is my destiny...the only future that I have or want...and this is something that I take very seriously. Seriously enough to say that if my life does not belong to God, then I don't want to live. How's that for happy? You know, having a relationship with Him, and allowing Him to live through me...to allow His will in my life....has been the most fulfilling and wonderful and meaningful thing that I've ever done, but it has also been the most challenging by far. What I'm doing is not easy, and even though I may bitch and whine and scream as my flesh cries out in pain, I swear to you that I wouldn't have it any other way.

    I have faith in God because I know Him, and for no other reason. He is who He says He is...He is my Father....my Creator...and I trust Him completely...THAT is faith. I believe not because it "makes me happy", but because I KNOW, because I LIVE IT.


    I have peace in knowing God...and in trusting Him. How could you feel more safe than to know that the Creator of the universe is in control of your life and loves you unconditionally? This peace and the joy that comes from living in His blessings...feeling them manifest in your life...is something that the circumstances of this world can not sway. That's because the peace is not of this world, and the joy does not come from it...but from Him...and He is forever and constant...and His love is not fickle. So happiness may come and go, but my peace gets me through it all. And the joy that comes from experiencing His blessings is eternal if you so choose it, and I choose it...regardless of my "mood".


    Love,

    Lori
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2004
  11. anonymous2 Registered Senior Member

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    299
    I apologized to him if I offended him.

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    And if I offended you I apologize.

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    Well, I have to ask, how is it fair for a "loving" God to make me "crucify my flesh" (which to me means having a lobotomy, because should I have to apologize for my mind working [or not working] like it does), in order to get something uncertain in a future life? And if I don't, I get an eternal hell? If you can explain how making myself do and think things which are against how my mind works, and against my own will, as being fair, and if I don't, I get an eternal hell, then I'd like to hear it. And if it's not "fair", then how can you say "God is fair"? That's if you do say "God is fair".

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    Last edited: Nov 16, 2004
  12. Bells Staff Member

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    But is God there? You wish to believe that God is there, then good for you. Blow a trumphet. But we don't believe God is there. Why? Because he has done nothing to prove his existence. He allows millions of people to die needlessly and does nothing. Now if God was there, then he must be one sick son of a bitch to sit back and watch as his innocent children suffer terrible pains and die horrible deaths at the hands of others and he does nothing to save them. Tell me something Lori, if your child was in danger, wouldn't you do something to save that child? I know I sure as hell would. Yet God, your God, does absolutely nothing. There's 'God is love' for you.


    True, no one is the same. There are some Christians out there who cuddle rattle snakes and pray that they be saved, and if they don't get bitten enough times and manage to survive without the anti-venine, then they proclaim God's existance. If they get to point where they need the anti-venom, then God must be mad at them so they pray some more, forgetting the fact that by the time they actually don't fall sick and/or die from the bites, their bodies have probably developed it's own defence to the poison.

    I don't believe what I don't see, as in I don't believe in things that do not exist. For example, I never believed that the WMD's existed when we invaded Iraq, and look looky there.. no WMD's. Imagine! Does that make me delusional? I believe the delusions would stem more from people who see things that aren't there, ie. Bush believing that there were WMD's in Iraq. Can you see where I'm going with this?

    We are delusional because we don't believe in something or someone that does not exist? Ermm ok.. whatever you say...

    backs away slowly... trying not to make eye contact...

    There is? Where? Let me guess, you're going to claim that the earth, the trees, the animals, man, the mosquito bite on my leg.. they're all proof of God. Hmmm... one would think that if God existed he'd actually try and help and save people. Silly me. God is in heaven watching over us, but if you're being murdered, tortured, starved by man or nature, don't expect God to do anything to help you. He just likes to watch. Kind of perverted don't you think?

    What makes you think that they are bowing down when they discuss "intelligent design theory"? Do you have proof of these toe licking moments? Do you even know what "intelligent design theory" is? And why would they call it God? There is no God. And your sarcasm at the mention of aliens is amusing. You don't discount God, but you discount other life-forms? Kind of selfish of you to think that your God created only you and your species and the animals and plants around you, don't you think? Hey, maybe that's why God does crap all for us... maybe he's too busy helping the aliens... his other children..

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    We don't need to prove it. We know how we have gotten to where we are. We already know of the process of evolution. We already know of the big bang theory... hell there's still evidence of that. If you want just one particular proof that there is no God, one only has to turn on the TV and look at the starving and dying millions of innocent people as proof. Loving God indeed...

    Yes, and your proof of there is a God because the bible says so is such good and solid proof. And you're calling others delusional? Mmmm hmmm...
     
  13. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    You didn't offend me, and it is impossible to offend Him...He created everything and understands everything after all. He's above it all...literally...lol. Ok...first, He doesn't "make" you do anything. If you want to know Him, then He meets you where you are, wherever that may be. If you want to have a relationship with Him, then He's all for it, and He makes no conditions or stipulations regarding the relationship. If you want to learn from Him, then He's all about answering your questions...telling you the truth...and He does more than just verbally tell you things or explain things or instruct. He provides you with examples from your life. That's why I know that everything happens for a reason...the reason being to learn...which is the meaning of life...to seek the truth...to find it and to learn from it. And that's what I mean when I say that "I live it"...I learn from experience, and most usually the hard way...lol. But that's ok...not to say that I don't regret some things, but ultimately, I'm satisfied as long as I learn.

    In my own personal experience, here's how it went...I was humbled in life...have been many times over actually, but eventually to the point in which I prayed...sincerely seeking the truth...whatever it was...I did not know. Even given all of my intellectualizing and theorizing and study of theology...I knew nothing of God FOR SURE. And I found that I HAD to know...I sincerely wanted to know, barring all consequences...whatever it meant for me...I didn't care...I had to know the truth. Did He really exist? Was Jesus really Him in the flesh? So I prayed at one point, "God, if you are real, then I want to know."...and it progressed from there..."God, if Jesus was your Son, and the Bible is true, then I want to know."..."God, if I can have a relationship with you, then I want to"..."God, I need you right now (pleading and crying on my knees)." And along the way, He answered all of my prayers...every single one...not that the above was all that I prayed. And He did it through my life experience...teaching me things. Things that really helped me alot.

    So progressively, I came to know Him more and more, and to understand Him more and more, and to trust Him more and more. So, you don't end up going against your mind, but changing it in light of a new understanding. And it's strange...you don't realize how flawed your flesh is...including your brain...the way you "see" things...the things that you believe...until you come to know Him. In the Bible it talks about getting a new pair of eyes or something like that, and that's exactly how it seems. Knowing Him changes your perception systemically...it changes how you see and think about everything....not all at once necessarily, but progressively, more and more. The more He teaches you, the more positive effects that your learning produces in you and in your life...the more of your life that you give unto Him, the more He is able to "move" or "work" in your life, and He blesses you...this blesses you more and more. These positive changes that HE makes, not you, but Him...this is what the Bible calls "fruit of the Spirit". So progressively, you give Him more and more of yourself and your life, because you WANT to...because you love Him, and you trust Him, because you know Him, and you know that He is God, your Creator, and that He loves you beyond comprehension and unconditionally, and that He always, always acts in your best interest, and will always take care of you. He will provide for you, comfort you, redeem you, restore you...no job is too tough...no need too great...nothing is impossible with Him. And He always exceeds your expectations...what He has done for me has absolutely blown my mind to smithereens. Recently, with this miracle that I keep talking about...it's been about a year actually since it all started, and I still don't have my mind wrapped around it yet...it is still very surreal to me. Because what He has done in my life...with my life...and how He has blessed me is just so over the top...it's just amazing...mind blowing. Now, in the process, let me tell you...my life has been absolutely turned upside down. Seriously, in the past five years, my life has been blown to bits...the life of my flesh that is. There is nothing left of it but scattered debris here and there...it still surrounds me for the moment...and I look at it and shake my head and laugh in amuzement. I would really just like to set it all on fire and watch it burn...toast some vegan marshmallows in it maybe. Anyway, my point is this...that although it is painful and confusing at times, and is a challenge at times, He keeps you through it all. He is the One who takes it all on for you, and carries you through it. All you really have to do is want it, and He takes it from there. It's wanting it that your flesh will fight you about. But you KNOW that your flesh is a liar...you learn it more and more. You KNOW what is good for you, and what is true, and you trust in Him more and more. So you come to want Him and His will in your life more and more. You know that the easy road is never right. That everything worth while is a challenge. Besides...you only get one shot at this life of yours, and it's a short one...so why not go for it? What else do you have to do?

    Oh, and trust me on this one...God is NOT fair...not at all. If God were fair, I would be dead and frying in hell right now. God is not about what you deserve, or what is fair...He is only about love and He shows it through His grace. Grace is unfair. Thank God.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2004
  14. anonymous2 Registered Senior Member

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    299
    The thing is though, Lori, from my view, what you're describing is how a "cult" works. If another book or religion made the claims you're making, it'd be classified as a "cult" or "mind control", wouldn't it? Christianity seems to be really about distrusting yourself, your mind, etc. So how is it really different than "cults", except that you personally believe it's true?

    Sure, I'm willing to admit my mind is flawed. But yours could be too. And if yours is flawed, how do you know your experiences of the God you worship aren't flawed experiences? Or even from a source besides the "True God"?

    Also, if you wish to express it, what have you done in your life which was so horrible which you seem to believe "If God were fair, I'd be frying in hell right now", which to me means an eternity in hell. Can you explain to me what horrible things you've done in your life to deserve such a thing? Yeah, I can admit I'm a "sinner", but I have a very difficult time admitting that I've done anything worth an eternity in hell.
     
  15. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    2,017
    To sin is to 'miss the mark'. I believe it derives it's meaning from archery when the arrow would go off course and miss it's mark.
    All flesh has sinned because we are not intrinsically good. We all miss the mark of perfection.
    God is holy. This means He is perfect and nothing imperfect may enter his presence. Flesh and blood may not therefore enter the Kingdom of Heaven. We must be born again. To be born again means to be born again of spirit. The spirit that controls our flesh is our link to God. God communicates to us by spirit. Without it we cannot hear him or do his will.
    There was no need for God to give us Jesus. Jesus came as a human being to show us God's mercy. Jesus told his disciples that he had to return to His Father so that the Holy Spirit would come to them. This is the Holy Spirit of whom I speak and whom I have received. Without Him I could not know the Father.
    You must believe in Jesus to receive the Holy Spirit, call on His name. To call on Jesus is to show the intentions of your heart to be saved, that you know that you may not save yourself. God is faithful to that call. I have seen his faithfulness a million times to those who call on His name and then I witness the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. The redeeming power of the Holy Spirit is a miracle. I would never had believed it had I not taken my doubts to Jesus and asked him to reveal Himself to me. The Holy Spirit convicts you of the truth about God Our Father. We learn his nature and try to adopt the attitudes that are revealed to us. It is not easy. The world is utterly opposed to the Spirit of God and it is for this reason that believers have been put to death. It was inevitable that Jesus was to be put to death and he accepted it because God told Him he should fulfill the prophecies written about Him. Jesus was the fulfillment of the law of God. He became an acceptable sin offering to God His father so that God would not reject those who believed in Him. Jesus owns us. He wants us to live for ever in peace with Him. He is not ashamed to call us His brothers. This is the good news of the Christian faith. Jesus intercedes for us even in our fallen state because He knows our weaknesses and above all else He has incredible love for us. Love covers a multitude of sin.

    peace

    c20
     
  16. fahrenheit 451 fiction Registered Senior Member

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    323
    no wrong duh c20, I have not sinned, I have somethings I regret. but I have not sinned.
    babies have'nt sinned, animals have'nt sinned, what a totally stupid thing to say.
    if your god was perfect you would not exist, as he would have no need to create you.
    so it must therefore be imperfect.
     
  17. anonymous2 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    299
    C20, Christians aren't the only ones who have been "put to death". You can make an argument for "martyrs" in many religions. Sikhism, Judaism, Hinduism (by refusing to convert to Islam), Baha'ism, and what about the "pagans" and others who have been killed by fanatics/crusaders/etc? I wouldn't want to put you to death. I can't accept what you preach, but I think your hope is great. I just can't agree with your worldview; it's unacceptable to me.

    Also, I have a problem not just with Christianity. I don't like Islam either. I don't like most religions, from what I've read. So it's not just Christianity I dislike, although I know more about Christianity than others, and it has impressed on my mind far, far more than any others I have read about.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2004
  18. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    10,515
    Cults are a product of mind control, but controlled by a person, not God. In a cult, the power and control lie in the cult leader, which is a human, not God Himself. Keep in mind that I am not following a man, or a doctrine, or a dogma, but God Himself. The only reason that what I know matches up with what is in the Bible, is because the Bible is God's Word. But if it were not for God Himself, I would not understand the Bible enough to believe it.

    Which leads me to your next question about being sure that this is not some "other" spirit that leads me. This is really where the Bible comes into play. Everything that God teaches me...about Himself...what I see and feel of His nature...about the world and this life...and about myself...which is substantiated and explained through my life experience...is confirmed in scripture. Also, and this is confirmed in scripture as well, I am very very very specific as to who I wish to communicate with...that is God Himself through Jesus Christ. When I pray, I pray in Jesus' name. When I call, I call Him by name "Jesus!" It is crystal clear to me from knowing God and from living this life that in this life, you get what you sincerely ask for...and I sincerely ask for Jesus Christ, and only Him. There is also the "fruit" to consider, as I can look at this world, and look at my own life, and see both sides...both kinds of "fruit"...some is rotten, and some is good. The rotten fruit was produced by the will of my flesh, and the good fruit was produced by His will and His Holy Spirit. The ruins of my past life that I spoke of that still surround me...that which I would like to set ablaze...that is all rotten fruit...just laying there rotting away. In essence, the effects of a relationship with God speak for themselves, as do the effects of a relationship with demonic spirits, or just a life lived for oneself. You can see the difference...my friends and family see the difference...they tell me...even though ironically, most of them don't believe what has happened to me, and those that do believe, don't really understand. I have known people who have been influenced by the "other side". Their methods are clearly described in the Bible to the letter, and they follow those same methods. Their intent is described as well, and is obvious to the observer. And the fruit is most blatently obvious...the most important piece being a denial of Jesus Christ as God come to earth in the flesh. What is the test of spirits? It says somewhere in the Bible...I thought it was in John...that if a spirit testifies that Jesus is not God come to earth in the flesh, then that spirit is demonic, or is not Holy, which is the same thing.

    As for what I've done that is so bad or wrong...wow, I could take up this whole message board. But to avoid doing that, I'll just put down what I would consider to be the "worst" thing. Which by the way, is not necessarily the "worst" thing, as I have no capacity to judge my own actions or intentions. But this is the thing that humbled me to Christ in the first place. Combined with many other life experiences, this is the thing that brought me to my knees...that made me HAVE TO KNOW THE TRUTH. And that is...I murdered my own child...or actually, plotted the murder, and paid for someone to do the killing, while I allowed it. In other words, I had an abortion. But like I've said before, I horrify myself all the time with my own behaviour. I am selfish and weak and judgemental and gluttonous and hateful. I can be so self-concerned and such a whiney little bitch at times...I can't stand myself. I've come to realize that the only thing that is good about me is Him. Because I've come to understand just how heavily influenced humans are by the spirit world. I've seen it, not just in myself, but in others around me as well. And again, confirmed in scripture, it says something to the effect of...that it is not the flesh that we fight against, but spirits and principalities of the air. Sorry, I'm not a Bible thumper, or I would quote scripture much better. See, our flesh has been tainted to be influenced by the "other" side. And God interacts with us not through our flesh, but through our spirit.

    I shouldn't have said that about frying in hell you know. We don't go to hell because of our works or behaviour, but because of a choice to deny Christ. It's just that the wages of sin is death...take a look around and you see the consequence of sin...it is apparent and it is horrifying...the suffering is so awful. And it is so very clear to me that I am a sinner...not made so by my works, as they are an "effect" of my state, but made so by my inherent flesh, which is corrupt from birth, and will remain so until I am done with this wretched and fatally flawed body. What a relief that will be.

    Love,

    Lori
     
  19. fahrenheit 451 fiction Registered Senior Member

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    lori 7 so an innocent babe that's to young to even contemplate christ, but has a heart defect and is about to die, because it was born a sinner, will go to hell, anybody who believes in a different religion will go to hell.
    so basical anybody other than a xian is condemned to a eternity of suffering, just because they were born in a different country, or under a different banner to you.
    your almost a nutty as c20.
     
  20. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    2,017
    And you are mad for suggesting that God would cut off an innocent babe. How little you understand of what we have been saying to you.
    God is love but you seem to want to find every conceivable way to deny that.
    You find justice abhorrent. You dont even apply common sense to justice when it comes to the lives of innocent children.
    God favours the poor in spirit, the contrite, the humble, those who seek Him to put right all the wrongs that have been commited by the unforgiving and the unrepentant. Those who do not take matters in their own hands but rather seek Him to wipe the tears from their eyes.
    How little you understand the things of God. It is shameful.

    c20
     
  21. Gravity Deus Ex Machina Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,007
    The only difference between a cult and a religion is that the latter is older and has more followers and as a consequence seems less controversial because society has become used to it.

    Period.
     
  22. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    And to this I then ask what exactly it is you're repenting for. You have clearly stated here that you are actually guilty of nothing, other than being born human - which most certainly was not a choice on your part. You then state that the only way to be done with your inherent "defect" is to die, so again.. what are you repenting for right now? You have only done that which you have been born to do, and you most certainly cannot consider yourself guilty of sin as it is a natural and inherent part of being a human.

    In summary: You are repenting for being born a human being, which is quite clearly daft. And then trying to justify people being tortured for eternity because they just so happened to have been born faulty.

    You want an end to torture, but justify torture - you want an end to suffering, but justify suffering, and you want to be forgiven, but you have nothing to be forgiven for.

    You truly come across as being lonely and lost. It is a big scary world, but there's no need to be ashamed of being you - and yet, that is exactly what you ask from the rest of us.
     
  23. fahrenheit 451 fiction Registered Senior Member

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    after stating this on your own Why Does God allow evil to happen? Is God evil? thread c20 it is shameful that you have the cheek, to show your face on this forum.
    justice is something your god has no knowledge of, and you neither.
    please dont speak to me no more, you disgust me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2004

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