Chemical evolution:

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by paddoboy, Aug 7, 2020.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Quote ambiguously attributed.
    Hazen's contribution is largely irrelevant to my point - I simply noted that chiral molecules and chirality-influenced chemical interactions were common and readily available for "evolutionary process" to work with.
    That's easily sufficient - chiral molecules were abundant on the entire surface of the planet, and many of them (the clays, some crystals, lots of organics, anything with magnetic moment, etc) were capable of copying themselves, spreading via mechanical and other environmental forces, and so forth.
    It's important to remember that the modern extraordinary efficiency of living beings was completely unnecessary. If it took months and miles instead of minutes and micrometers to duplicate something, that was ok - nothing was stopping it.
     
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  3. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    If you understand abiogenesis so clearly, then why are you compelled to introduce "evolution" into the equation?
    You seem to be conflating an unexplained hypothesis, abiogenesis - life from non-life, and an actual scientific theory that begins with the premise that life already exists.
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    IMO , there is more to it than that.

    Cell chirality: its origin and roles in left–right asymmetric development
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5104503/#
    I'm not sure if I agree with that. Seems to me that nothing in Nature is abundant without being subject to natural selection and having some underlying advantage. The abundance of both speaks of the essential role they play in the evolution of biological organisms.

    Cell chirality: emergence of asymmetry from cell culture
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5104512/
     
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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The inorganic and organic molecules that covered the planet in the eons before life were often chiral, and abundant enough to cover the planet. Likewise water, silicon and aluminum and carbon compounds, that kind of stuff.
    Sure - so?
    There was plenty of chirality available for "evolutionary process" to work with in the eons before life emerged, is all I'm saying.
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Because evolution by natural selection in both chemistry and biochemistry is a demonstrable process of all things in the entire universe.
    The notion of "irreducible complexity" has been debunked, not just scientifically , but in a Court of Law, based on the evidence presented . (See the Kitzmiller v Dover Trial)

    Ask yourself this question: "Is a male sperm alive?" The answer is YES, it’s certainly as alive as any other cells in a male body. Since it can have a life of its own outside the body, each sperm is really an independent single-celled organism – like a living amoeba, but differing in locomotion and lifestyle.

    Now ask yourself this question: "Is an unfertilized egg alive?". The answer to this is NO, and at the same time answers the question of the abiogenetic process which transforms a non-living (unfertilized egg) into a living object able to replicate and grow after "fertilization". What better proof can be presented?

    Life is not a mysterious thing at all. Look around you and see the incredible variety of life and living organisms which inhabit this earth. And then to think that 95 % of all life on earth is extinct.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2020
  9. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Sure I have! His "preacher" like account from your link, and the little bit of that nonsense I watched proved that.
    Not at all! and his fanatical acceptance of the bible and rejection of science in some of the links also prove that. Would you like me to quote some of that extraordinary nonsense?
    I construed it as I saw it, and probably before most, and certainly no more offensive then declaring Tour for the fanatic he is, and the eager, gullible way you latched onto him.
    You are known to push conspiracies q-reeus, most inane and stupid. The rest is crap.
    So? You latch onto one "world renowned synthetic organic chemist " as opposed to a multitude of other world renowned synthetic organic chemists? And one who in his fanaticism has also avowed to continue to dismiss any new evidence for abiogenesis.
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I agree and natural selection used chirality as a template to avoid the development of two left hands an two left feet .

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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2857173/#:
     
  11. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    Except the inevitable presence of a whole lot of other reactive molecular species that would sabotage the hopeful self-replicator, terminating the (hypothetical) self-replication with essentially 100% probability.
     
  12. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    That a particular judge ruled irreducible complexity to be 'unsupported by the evidence' speaks more for the prejudices and likely political pressure involved.
    If you really want to know the truth on that subject, try starting here :

    Don't pursue this here - the thread topic is prebiological chemical evolution. Keep on topic!
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2020
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    In actual fact, it appears to be you, q-reeus and the religiously fanatical Tour, that's conflating the unsupported myth of ID with the logic of extrapolation back to the obvious...Abiogenesis.

    In Tour's own words, even if direct evidence of the methodology of Abiogenesis, was validated, it would not deter his fanatical faith in the word of the bible, and the nonsense therein.
    He is a fraud and a charlatan, that has achieved two well known ID advocates on this forum.
     
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  14. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And the unsupported excuses and conspiracies continue!

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    Hallelujah and Amen!!

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  15. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    You hurl these spiteful accusations at Tour as if there was factuality behind them. No, it's just paddoboy doing his usual thing - substituting invective for objective facts.
    Tour's religious convictions (what I referred to as compartmentalized thinking) are cleanly separated from his brilliant critiques of unguided abiogenesis hypothesis.
     
  16. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Not really, in fact all of the reputable mainstream knowledgable scientists, have shown him to be a charlatan, a sample as I have previously given.....perhaps you need remove your blindfold?

    and..............
    and this little doozy
    Nonsense...he separates his religious/ID crap, about as much as you seem to do.
    You and he are pushing shit up hill...
     
  17. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    paddoboy does what he always does - repeat post cut'n'paste from old links ad nauseum. Larry Moran's piece is notable for it's complete avoidance of Tour's strong suite which is critiquing unguided abiogenesis hypothesis. Tour was lured into commenting on post abiogenisis evolutionary theory which area is best left to true experts in that field notably Michael Behe. See my link in #69.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2020
  18. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And you have done what you do best...fabricating conspiracies with blindfold precision to support any god bothering fanatic if he happens to have a few letters after his name, and ignoring the multitude that have refuted him.

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    excuses, conspiracies, unsupported fabricated claims, and more conspiracies.
    Abiogenesis happened...that is certain. How? we have yet to properly figure out. Once there was no life: then there was.
    We have absolutely nothing to point to some unscientific mythical proposition, just to create a warm inner glow of security in some.
     
  19. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    So you keep asserting, padded with the usual assortment of totally unwarranted pejoratives and wild accusations. Classic paddoboy. Shout the loudest and longest and that is somehow winning the argument. No.
     
  20. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I don't need to win the argument q-reeus. It's already won, and imo will only grow in certainty.
    It's you [supported by you know who] shouting and screaming with regards to a scientific article in the OP, that validates chemical evolution. And who do you raise? James Tour! a religious fanatic, who takes the bible literally and even admits he would not stray from his so called rightous path, guided by the bible, no matter what the evidence for Abiogenesis. So much for your false adoration of this turkey.
     
  21. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    So, you are an atheist fanatic. Lovingly wedded so we are told to someone who is a bible-believing Christian. Be careful when throwing stones in a glasshouse.
     
  22. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Whatever floats your boat q-reeus...If refusing to be gullible and taken in by frauds is being an Atheist, that's OK with me. That at this time, aligns with the science.
    Yep, she though generally keeps here beliefs to herself and I have no qualms about her bring her religious friends and choir over. It's called tolerance q-reeus. No glasshouse in sight nore stones my friend. Our Son though thankfully, leans my way.


    ps: I don't tell dirty jokes or swear in front of her though.

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  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Obviously you have not studied the Court Case, and that forces you now to cast aspersions on the ability of a judge to impartially weigh the evidence presented, in order to prove your totally misguided understanding of a totally scientifically "DEBUNKED" charlatan, Behe.

    I won't pursue it here but you may want to peruse s0me of the 1790 posts devoted to the role and evolution of micro-tubules and the "flagella". (see Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules? )
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2020

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