Chicago Police May Scrap Entrance Exam. Why? Not enough minorities pass.

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by madanthonywayne, Jan 6, 2010.

  1. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

    In a story reminicent of the Judge Sotomeyor Firefighter case, The Chicago Police Department is considering scrapping its entrance exam to boost the number of minorities it hires and avoid lawsuits from minorities who can't pass the test. What a fucking load of crap.
    The Chicago Police Department is seriously considering scrapping the police entrance exam, sources tell Fran Spielman.

    Dropping the exam would bolster minority hiring and avert legal battles, according to one source, while others confirm that the exam could be scrapped to open the process to as many people as possible.

    However, the lack of an exam would make Chicago the lone major city without one, and experts contend that the exam is integral to eliminating unqualified applicants.

    The CPD has tried in recent years to boost minority hiring by offering the police exam online and turning to minority clergy to help in the recruitment effort.

    But those efforts have met with frustration. Despite seeing an increase in the number of minority applicants in 2006, the last year the exam was offered, the online component was never launched.

    And as of last year, one in four patrol officers were African-American, but just one in 12 Lieutenants were of color.

    Fraternal Order of Police President Mark Donahue said the plan "sounds ridiculous."

    "With this, you're taking away one of the steps that attempts to legitimize the (hiring) process," he said.

    Officials at City Hall have admitted that they have been exploring exam options since last fall, according to the Sun-Times.
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  3. Scaramouche Registered Member

    You must be racist. Or something. Clearly it is the only enlightened, advanced, and rational thing to do to simply scrap standards and let anyone do or be anything they want, regardless of capabilities.
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  5. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

    You sound just like a liberal! Good job.

    Note: I know you're being sarcastic

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    I disagree with the dropping of standards, by the way.
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  7. shichimenshyo Caught in the machine Registered Senior Member

    I also disagree with the dropping of those standards. education should be raised not expectations lowered.
  8. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    What's really and truly sad is that this is becoming a prevalent action by many, if not most, of the big city police and fire departments in the nation. I read an article last year in the Dallas Morning News that Dallas is also having difficulties finding and keeping police officers.

    And interestingly, and possibly for some of the reasons, many small city, small town police and fire departments are enjoying a boom in quality applicants.

    Baron Max
  9. codanblad a love of bridges Registered Senior Member

    they need to ascertain whether its the skill levels of the minorities or the nature of the exam which is causing them to fail. can they take the exam in their own language? is the exam testing cultural knowledge? otherwise lawsuits filed by minorities seem unjustified.
  10. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Just guessing here, but I think they've probably tried every freakin' avenue open to them and none have worked!! And as to lawsuits, we both know that those come from attorneys just trying to suck more milk from the government tit ....having little to do with actual injustice.

    I know that Dallas provides many of the civil service applications/tests in Spanish, with the requirement that the applicant, if hired, will take classes to further his English skills.

    However, let me tell you that I've been pulled over on several ocassions and had a damned difficult time understand what the black officer was asking me! Now that's a bit scary, ain't it?

    Baron Max
  11. Spud Emperor solanaceous common tater Registered Senior Member

    Slow down Baron, that way you won't get pulled over....oH derrrrr!!
  12. sandy Banned Banned

    I have a place in the city. It's a freaking joke already--all the liberal pc bs. Obama is an example of Chicago's failure. Too bad. It used to be a really nice place. My place at Navy Pier is still ok but most of the rest of the city is a hellhole. Ugh...
  13. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    But that isn't PC, remember it has to be a absolutely level playing field for everyone except the Bureaucratic Liberal Overseer making sure that the field is level.
  14. Scaramouche Registered Member

    When I was in the military, the training was reasonably tough, but obviously achievable. A few years later came all the consultants and efficiency experts and such, brought in because the civilian politicians decided not enough people were passing through basic training. Their solution was simple: make it easier. And they did. The result is not good.
  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    This was pretty much inevitable

    This is a direct result of the Ricci decision, which forbade entities from taking corrective action under the previously-existing standards, but still leaves them open to lawsuits over disparate impact. Their hands are pretty much tied, so they're dropping exams where they see problems. That way, they don't make the mistake the Court attributed to the NHCSB, which was to take corrective action in the face of specific results. Chicago officials are discouraged by the disparate results, so they're going to scrap the exam; this is one of the few preventative measures the Court left open to them.

    Had the Court majority ruled consistently with precedent and honestly according to the facts, other solutions would be available.

    This is a result of what Madanthonywayne, at least, wanted. Now he complains about that result. I don't know, should I be surprised at that?
  16. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    No, it wasn't what Madant wanted.

    But, Tiassa, the real issue in this thread is that minorities can't pass the normal, regular, standard exams for police or fire department work. What do you suggest as a method of getting the "required" number of minorities into the police and fire departments? That's the issue, Tiassa.

    Baron Max
  17. Scaramouche Registered Member

    Standards must be lowered! Saving lives and protecting the public doesn't matter. The important thing is making sure all minorities are represented fairly, or more than fairly. If that means lower standards and a few lives lost here and there, that's a price your politicians are willing to pay to make sure you're living in an appropriately diverse society.
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    (Insert Title Here)

    Until we see the exam in question and understand specifically what problems the department perceived, it's kind of hard to make any recommendations.

    As we saw in Ricci, however, a fundamentally flawed exam that happens to result in the appearance of disparate impact does not justify corrective action after the fact. If the department concluded that their exam suffered certain flaws resulting in the potential appearance of disparate impact, scrapping the exam was their best, most obvious route.

    Perhaps, in time, they will devise a new exam that can withstand such scrutiny.

    This is, of course, part of the reason the Ricci decision is such a mess.
  19. Scaramouche Registered Member

    Didn't the Ricci case show that the tests were fair and not biased at all? And that the black firefighters failed simply because they weren't good enough?
  20. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Chicago isn't a failure though. It still is a good place to be. Your not very familiar with the city are you? I have had family living in and around chicago for almost a century the city is one of the more successful big cities in the country.

    If chicago is so bad Why can't my family afford to move back into the neiborhood we used to live in their despite the increase in income?
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member


    The contractor that designed and implemented the test said quite clearly that the test was flawed. To the one, it asked extraneous questions, which was the sort of thing the judicial precedent prohibited. To the other, it didn't even test for command capability.

    There were also delays for many candidates in obtaining the appropriate study materials, and some disparity in access to other advantages. Justice Ginsburg's dissent in that decision is scorching.

    Add on top of that, the judicial majority actually misrepresented the facts.

    The whole decision is a judicial train wreck.
  22. Scaramouche Registered Member

    This one, right?

    The case found that the City promoted the examination ahead of time completely fairly, and conducted the exam completely fairly, with no bias related to race whatsoever. The case also found that the City then went on to disqualify allt he results specifically because they wanted the black guys to pass even though they failed. The case also found that the City was wrong to do so.
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Politics, justice, and reality

    It's an interesting political summary, but there is more to it:

    In fact, the company that made the test admitted that some of the items were "irrelevant" in New Haven. One question, for example, asked the test-takers whether fire equipment should be parked "uptown, downtown or underground when arriving at a fire." The question was based on information relevant to New York City firefighters, and was on the exam even though the city of New Haven has no "uptown" or "downtown" ....

    .... In other cases, judges have concluded, based on expert testimony, that written, multiple-choice tests for firefighter promotion like the one in this case contain the "fatal flaw" of failing to test for "supervisory ability." The company that made the New Haven Fire Department exam acknowledges that its test does not include any questions that measure a test-taker's ability to supervise or lead other firefighters in the line of duty.


    • • •​

    At least two candidates opposed to certification noted unequal access to study materials. Some individuals, they asserted, had the necessary books even before the syllabus was issued. Others had to invest substantial sums to purchase the materials and “wait a month and a half for some of the books because they were on back-order.” Id., at A858. These disparities, it was suggested, fell at least in part along racial lines. While many Caucasian applicants could obtain materials and assistance from relatives in the fire service, the overwhelming majority of minority applicants were “first-generation firefighters” without such support networks.

    (Ginsburg, 7)

    • • •​

    Petitioners were denied promotions for which they qualified because of the race and ethnicity of the firefighters who achieved the highest scores on the City’s exam.

    (Alito, 13)

    • • •​

    The white firefighters who scored high on New Haven’s promotional exams understandably attract this Court’s sympathy. But they had no vested right to promotion. Nor have other persons received promotions in preference to them. New Haven maintains that it refused to certify the test results because it believed, for good cause, that it would be vulnerable to a Title VII disparate-impact suit if it relied on those results. The Court today holds that New Haven has not demonstrated “a strong basis in evidence” for its plea. Ante, at 2. In so holding, the Court pretends that “[t]he City rejected the test results solely because the higher scoring candidates were white.” Ante, at 20. That pretension, essential to the Court’s disposition, ignores substantial evidence of multiple flaws in the tests New Haven used. The Court similarly fails to acknowledge the better tests used in other cities, which have yielded less racially skewed outcomes.

    (Ginsburg, 1-2)

    So, which of the nineteen petitioning firefighters were unfairly denied promotion? Twenty-two candidates passed the Captain's exam, while there were seven vacancies. Thirty-four candidates passed the Lieutenant's exam; there were eight vacancies. Nineteen plaintiff firefighters claimed to be unfairly denied promotion to fifteen vacancies. The math just doesn't work.


    West-Faulcon, Kimberly. "Ricci vs. DeStefano: A test on race". Los Angeles Times. April 24, 2009. January 7, 2010.,0,5548886.story

    Ricci et al. v. DeStefano et al.. Supreme Court of the United States. June 29, 2009. January 7, 2010.

    —Alito, J. Samuel. "Concurring".
    —Ginsburg, J. Ruth. "Dissent".​

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