Christianity is based on substitutionary atonement. Is it a moral religion?

The church you found or founded?

 

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Well i dont want to brag... but i did have a hand in its foundation.!!!

PS:::
Everone is welcome to join.!!!

 

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Which church is that?

Regards
DL

 

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New Age Christan Atheist.!!!

Any mamber in good standin is garanteed not to go to hell.!!!

 

Jesus does not save anybody just because he claims to follow Jesus. Jesus requires results. And you pretty much, have to work for your salvation. So, its not a matter of Jesus saving you. Rather, its a matter of Jesus showing you the way to salvation, so that you work it out yourself. Its pretty much a Do-It-Yourself kind-a-thing.

 

That's scripture that scapegoat riders try real hard to ignore.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
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Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Jesus said to pick up your cross and follow him but I see that you have taken the line that someone else should pay your dues. Quite manly and moral that. Not.

Do you really think someone else can pay your dues and allow you to shirk your just reward?

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

As above so below.

If you had God's power, would you not be able to find a way that does not go against the wisdom of Jesus and the bible?

Perhaps like being man enough to step up to your own demands for a worthy sacrifice?

That is what a good God would do.

Regards
DL

 

Jesus is a Neutral Law, that God put in the Human Spirit. And the Father of Jesus, is God, and Man, the Image and likeness. Jesus does what He sees His Father doing. Create Hell, he gives you Hell. Create Heaven, He gives Heaven. He is you own creation, as an Intelligent Spirit.

 

To say that Jesus is natural law is foolish.

But you are correct that we create our Gods. We always have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_complex



And then we stupidly forget that we have created them.

Regards
DL

 

Save from what?

 

Results like... sin less.???

 

He requires people to do as He tells them, and as he does. He is not impressed by lip service


“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.” Luke 6:46-49

 

So, you think its foolish? Well that is what he said;

“Meanwhile, let the sinner go on sinning, and the unclean continue to be unclean; let those who do good, continue to do good, and those who are holy continue to be holy. Very soon, now, I shall be with you, again, bringing the reward to be given to every man, according to what he deserves. I, am the Alpha, and the Omega, the First, and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Happy are those who will have washed their robes clean, so that they will have the right to feed on the tree of Life, and come through the gates into the city" Revelation 22:11-13

 

Jesus dont sin... Jesus hates sin... do you still sin.???

 

Bullshit. Deserve has nothing to do with it.
Most of Revelation was obviously written by someone(s) high on drugs.
Con artists always say it's foolish to not believe them.
You do not know what he said, IF he even existed.

 

The interesting point to me is that God created man and allowed him to be capable of sin (free will argument I guess) and in order to allow himself (God) to forgive man for his sins he allowed Jesus (which is God) to be killed as a sacrifice to himself.

So he created the problem, and sacrificed himself to himself?

The ultimate oddity of the whole Christian concept is that God created Man (more or less) for the sole purpose of worshiping him (since the only purpose and reward for life on Earth is the Afterlife).

Wouldn't it be easier to just skip the whole earthly phase and just create Man directly in heaven to amuse and flatter God with his praise?

It's interesting that a common theist question for atheists is "What purpose is there in life for you if there is no God?". When actually there is no purpose in life on Earth for a theist except to serve and worship God. The only meaningful purpose for Man in Christianity comes in the Afterlife. Life on Earth is essentially a burden.

Also, why create an imperfect Man, set the standard to be like God, and then punish Man for not being able to reach the unobtainable standard?

 

John 3:42 "Do as I say, not as I do."
I live by "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Too bad your god cannot do that.
I'm not impressed by impotent gods who will not show themselves. I'm not impressed by collections of ancient scribblings from superstitious savages. I'm not impressed by fearful faithful fanatics making wild claims they cannot support. I'm not impressed by anyone whose ultimate goal seems to be a sycophant slave for eternity.

 

The interesting point to me is that God created man and allowed him to be capable of sin (free will argument I guess) and in order to allow himself (God) to forgive man for his sins he allowed Jesus (which is God) to be killed as a sacrifice to himself.

So he created the problem, and sacrificed himself to himself?

The ultimate oddity of the whole Christian concept is that God created Man (more or less) for the sole purpose of worshiping him (since the only purpose and reward for life on Earth is the Afterlife).

Wouldn't it be easier to just skip the whole earthly phase and just create Man directly in heaven to amuse and flatter God with his praise?

God is the creator. So, he created the universe earth included. Why? God is Consciousness. He creates to express consciousness. So creation is expression of Consciousness of God. But the realm of Manifestation of Gods creation, exists as an unconscious Law. So, even if God manifested creation, creation manifest appeared as unconscious law.

Now God wanted to experience consciousness as a creation, amongst his creation. But if he created Man directly Man would be absolutely conscious just like God, and he would be pure Spirit, and pure flesh. (See Adam and Eve)

So, God created another Spirit, Man. And gave him permission to experience consciousness in the Realm of the Unconscious Law. This Man, is us, the human Spirit. Being in the unconscious Law of manifestation, Man did not know(just as he does not know) that he is Spirit in Flesh. Therefore, to the extent that Man did not know himself as Spirit, God did not know Himself as a creation. So, we had God, and His Image, the Human Spirit, each expressing himself differently One was Good, the other evil. This pare of Spirit, was “us) in Genesis 1 whom God was referring to , “ See, man has become like one of us, with his knowledge of good and evil” (Good-God, Evil-Human Spirit)

So, what could God do? Since this Man, Adam, know God in paradise, when he was chased away from paradise, God continued to engage his linage through Abraham. This linage of Abraham, was the Israelites, who wee supposed to express themselves correctly as Spirit in Flesh, so that the rest of humanity, may know God and seek to worship him, correctly instead of false gods.

This linage failed, but God used them, to create a third Spirit, A spirit who was pure and sinless, to be the Redeemer of Man for God. This was the Christ. He is Our Redeemer. He teaches you to know good and evil and learn to choose good.


It's interesting that a common theist question for atheists is "What purpose is there in life for you if there is no God?". When actually there is no purpose in life on Earth for a theist except to serve and worship God. The only meaningful purpose for Man in Christianity comes in the Afterlife. Life on Earth is essentially a burden.

The earth is a school for you. You are here to know good and evil and learn to choose good. Of course, choosing good is burdensome. Evil is easy.


Also, why create an imperfect Man, set the standard to be like God, and then punish Man for not being able to reach the unobtainable standard?

Man was created perfect, but taught himself evil.

Well, Christ is God who is punished by Man and who is also the punishment for Man. He makes a person workout his own punishment in person. He is Yahweh Manifest. Create hell, and He gives you Hell. Create paradise, and He gives you paradise. " Then, the Son of Man, will send His angels, and will gather, out of his kingdom, all the things that provoke offense, and all who do evil, and throw them in the brazing furnace, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth" Mathew 13: 41-45

He is the Son of Man, or the result of Human wickedness. He is the Beginning of Mans creations, and the end of Mans creation. His power is made more perfect in what appears to Man as weakness. He rules while Crucified. Unseen by evil men, because everyone has commonsense and the ability to know good and evil and capacity to choose good. We call it, "Equity" " Natural Justice" "Common Decency" He is the inverse correlation faction between the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Man

“Know then, that Yahweh your God is God indeed, the faithful God, who is true to his covenant and is gracious for a thousand generations, towards those who love him, and keeps his commandments, but who punishes in their own persons, those who hate him. He is not slow to destroy the man who hates him. He makes him work out his punishment in person. Deuteronomy 7:9-11.

 

What is "unconscious law" and where do you come up with that concept?

"God is consciousness", what is your source for that?

Why create the universe just to be able to create Earth? Why create the universe 14 billion years ago, create Earth 4.5 billion years ago and not get around to creating man until 100,000 years ago or so?

What is the "purpose" of creating the universe and why make it so big just to be able to "create" Earth?

 

No. That is simply silly, stupid & illogical. Theist conniving does not work for anyone but the super gullible. You are desperate to pretend to transfer responsibility from the supposedly older wiser supposedly powerful being to the being with barely any power. How can you go on&on&on&on with such absurd nonsense.
We cannot love, hate or keep commandments of something we do not know exists. Neither can you.

 

Another absurdity is that there was no sacrifice. IF the story is true that Jesus' purpose for being on Earth was to die & IF he knew he would go on to live happily ever after in paradise, there was no sacrifice.