Christians break the Golden Rule when accepting Jesus as savior.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Greatest I am, Feb 21, 2017.

  1. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Christians break the Golden Rule when accepting Jesus as savior.

    Jesus indicated that doing unto others as we would want done to us was a commandment.

    Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, goes against the Golden Rule and Jesus’ commandment.

    None of us would want to be punished for someone else’s sin, yet Christians ignore Jesus’ commandment and eagerly consent to let Jesus suffer for the sins they have done so that they might escape their just punishment.
    From what Jesus said, Christians are showing that they are not fit for heaven as they do not follow Jesus’ commandment and thus do evil.

    Should Christians step up and make themselves fit for heaven by rejecting substitutionary atonement?

    Regards
    DL
     
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, they do. They are human.

    I would not want to be judged by such an absolute criterion. I'll bet you wouldn't either.

    Why pick on them?
     
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  5. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Christians can't consent to something that happened in the past. They aren't doing anything to Jesus.
     
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Nothing you (or anyone) can do will prevent the suffering of Jesus. So your point is moot.
     
  8. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Besides, Jesus had a bad weekend and went back to heaven. It's not a big deal, people suffer more than that all the time.
     
  9. birch Valued Senior Member

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    Morally, the ones who use the atonement of jesus's having suffered for their sins and keep on sinning indicate what they are truly about. They are false and users. Well, they are bad people and there are plenty of them. There are certainly people who use and abuse religion and even christ or god if they can get away with it.

    But those who try to live a christlike example is different than those who use religion or ethics like a doormat. Especially abusing the 'forgiveness' angle. They are not really sorry for shit. Just like with any organization or idea, it will be infiltrated, appropriated and twisted by decievers and evil as well as rationalizing it.

    People can call themselves anything. Two people can call or even believe themselves christian but can have differing ethics and motivation.

    Hypothetically, if there was to be a real accounting, i bet it would be a mixture of atheists, agnostics and the religious who would qualify to be truly christlike (enter heaven), not just the religious as some believe. Furthermore, probably most of the religious would be out. Even the bible says that many will claim to know god (christian, islam or whatever) but it will respond that i never knew you as in they were not real christians, ethical, true or christlike. Aka phonies, deceivers, manipulators, or the like 'pharisees.'
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017
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  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    The flaw here (and I only quote you because you highlight the flaw in OP's post), is that it is directed at the nebulous, shifting group of 'they'.

    Who are these 'they's the OP speaks of? All Christians?

    If I said internet forum posters are bad because they lie through their teeth, could we have a meaningful discussion about it? Do we even agree that this is a thing? Do we all have the same idea of who is in and who is nit in this pseudo-category If so, who is guilty? Can we examine any exemplars?

    Really, all we're arguing here is or own, undefined preconceptions of who we suppose, without defensibility, fits into such a contrived bucket.
     
  11. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    1,424

    Two points

    1. As I understand JC was a volunteer but even so his action would yes require acceptance by the sinner. If you don't accept you have to atone for your own sins.
    2. BUT it appears this is condoned and actioned by the boss
      Numbers 14:18 ESV
      ‘The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.’

      Deuteronomy 5:9 ESV
      You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me
    Check the link for other Bible sayings about the sins of the father

    https://www.openbible.info/topics/sins_of_the_father

    Humpty and Poe speak from the high ground
    Well from the top of a wall

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  12. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    I pick on no one.

    I am just showing those that do want to follow Jesus' commands, that they are failing to do so by promoting something immoral and unjust.

    If they do not want to do the right thing, then that is their choice.

    Regards
    DL
     
  13. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    3,515
    Not to those who wish to live moral lives and perhaps save Christianity.



    Regards
    DL
     
  14. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Suffer!

    To an infinite entity, any change from that hum drum existence is R & R and even a bit aof pain would be welcome to ease the boredom.

    Regards
    DL
     
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  15. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    No one but Christians believe that a God who can forgive without a blood sacrifice would be prick enough to have his son murdered instead of forgiving without a sacrifice.

    The O.P. is clear and names Christians and that is who "they" represents.

    Regards
    DL
     
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  16. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    To your first point.

    1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

    That is not volunteering and if you read scriptures, you will know that Jesus often says that he is doing his fathers will and not his own.

    Your second point.

    The following quotes are why I call what God did murder, if he actually needs a blood sacrifice. As you can see, a sacrifice was not required.

    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

    Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

    The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

    As you can see, especially those last two quotes, all are saved without a sacrifice.

    Psa 49 7
    None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

    Now we can thump the contradictory bible at each other or chat on the morality of substitutionary atonement.

    Your choice.

    Regards
    DL
     
  17. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    1,424
    Not even a close choice

    I am sure we could play Ping Pong with bible quotes

    It seems you do not wish to do so

    Neither do I

    As to a chat on the

    morality of substitutionary atonement


    I'll give that miss also

    If someone wants to
    • die for my sins
    • go to hell instead of me or here on Earth
    • pay my parking ticket
    • go to jail for the crimes I did
    they are most welcome to do so

    So you see nothing to chat about

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  18. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    If you are not willing to do the same, then you do not follow the Golden Rule.

    Only by ignoring your bible and good morality can you maintain your position.

    Regards
    DL
     
  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, that is picking in followers of Jesus.

    I am asking why they are held to a higher standard than anyone else in the world.

    Or is this just the first of many, many threads you are going to start - one for each religion, creed and philosophy that promotes compassionate behavior?
     
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry, no matter how moral you imagine your life to be, you can't keep Christ from suffering. That is a fact no matter what your religious delusions tell you.
     
  21. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    I've always found the concept of a scape goat a bit distasteful. Then again, I think it's all allegory and fictional mythology.
     
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  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    4,820
    That is a very different argument than you present in the OP and the thread title.

    I ask again, why are Christians singled out? No other peoples have self-contradictory or questionable teachings their religion, creed or philosophy?

    So, all of them. All Christians. You've met all of them. You're OK with categorically labelling a billion people as hypocrites.
     
  23. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    1,424
    You got it

    Wait what same?

    How perceptive you are

    Wait what position?

    Is there a queue?

    OK hands up all those willing to let Christianity go down the tubes

    Ummmm quite a few

    OK go home now, get some rest. Back here tomorrow same time

    Don't forget your signs

    We march at dawn

    Onward non-Christian soldiers
    Marching off to non-war

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