Christians .....can they really be friends to non-believers???

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Flash, Jan 14, 2000.

  1. Tony H2o Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    441
    Flash and others,

    When we look to other people as examples of what something should or shouldn't be or what someone is or isn't then we will always be sorely disappointed. When we judge who Christ is by the words and actions of others rather than His words and actions we insult ourselves. When we think that what people do sums up who He is we only rob ourselves of the real truth.

    It is saddening for me who calls himself a disciple of Christ to read about the hurt and confusion inflicted by my brothers and sisters. It would be wrong of me however to say I've never done the same.

    For those who have been hurt I would ask for your forgiveness and for you to forgive.

    I think that the words of Jesus would best sum up the attitude that Christians should have. Jesus was accused of eating and drinking with people of lesser reputation, His reply "Those who are well have no need of a medical man, but those who are ill". Jesus never removed Himself from people, he removed Himself from sin. Jesus never insulted a persons belief but when asked He pointed out the truth.

    Jesus spoke about His followers being the light of the world and the salt of the earth. No man lights a lamp and hides it under cover. And what of salt? If it looses its taste how do you restore it? The light goes into the darkness and the darkness can not overcome it.

    Jesus spoke many things about what His followers position should be in the world, and they were never words of separation from people. They were words of dedication to God and having a living relationship with Him and others. The biggest problem us Christians have today is that we are so scared of being contaminated that we separate ourselves and label it as holiness. We then get stuck in the rut of talking the talk but sadly forget to walk the walk. To do the things that Jesus did, to be to others what He has been to us.

    The town that I live in on the outskirts of one of Australia's most beautiful cities is notorious for its crime and being a lower class area. However this does not stop me from going out late at night and just walking the streets to befriend the lonely and the lost, to try and show the true meaning of Gods love to them if they want it. If they don't want to talk about God well that's OK to, actions often speak louder than words.

    People will always move in and out of our lives with varying depths of friendship and relationships being built and broken.

    There are friends that pretend to be friends, but there is a friend who is closer than a brother.

    Please don't let broken friendships with believers and non believers ever stop you from searching for God.

    Please don't search for God in friendships with believers or non believers, you will be let down.

    Please DO search for God, but seek His friendship above all others.

    Take care.
     
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  3. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    Lori and Flash,

    It seems as though you have a unique relationship on this board. It seems that you are the only two who know each other personally.

    It is very sad to see you both hurting so badly right now for many reasons. Continuing to divulge matters about each other which were said in the confidence of your personal relationship, outside this board, is only serving to hurt each other more. You have both broken each other's trust and my love and prayers go out to both of you. What is done is done. It need not continue.

    At this point, please try to draw on the love that I know you can find for yourself and each other as fellow human beings. Try to separate the wrong-doing from the individual and look upon each other as fellow human beings with the same weaknesses and the same need for love, trust, compassion and forgiveness.

    Peace be with you.

    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 16, 2000).]
     
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  5. Flash Registered Senior Member

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    771
    TS,
    I read this last night after I made my last post to Lori. I have thought about it alllll
    night...and was drawn to read it again today.

    I want to point out my emotion is not one of hurt..but, rather anger. I feel soooo betrayed. Not to mention Lori has put me in the position if I talk..I must be prepared to
    talk about ALL...to me that is a threat..meaning if you don't..I'll come out and make sure ALL is known.

    You pointed out that I have also broken trust because I too have revealed things here on this forum concerning Lori. As much as I try to justify it by saying I didn't until she had repeatedly done so concerning me....I know when it boils down to it..I sunk to the level which pissed me off to begin with.

    I do not know.... I don't think Lori can stop from spreading my personal stuff around...she has had a very hard time controlling it..and I can't just sit here and say things with which she agrees with all to keep her quiet.

    She may be doing this out of...concern ..or
    whatever she says she is doing it out of..I do not think she realizes how important trust means to me..and as long as she defies that.. what the heck am I suppose to do??
    Be subjected to it again and again??

    I am MORE than willing to stop divulging info
    concerning Lori... What say ye, Lori.. CAN you???????? (not holding my breath)
     
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  7. Zappers Registered Senior Member

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    44
    I’ve sold my Condo and I’m in the process of packing so I’ll be ready to move when the time comes. My place of work is also in the process of moving and I haven’t had much time to keep up with all of the posting in this forum. I say this simply to apologize in case I repeat what has already been said.
    Friendship to me is very complex and not unique to Christians. Christians may think so, but some of the most vile people around have loved and had friends. Friendship comes from the heart and is another form of love that
    should not to be confused with the love two people may have and also share a physical love between them, be they
    different sexes or the same. What I’m trying to say here is friendship between two men or women is a form of love
    but does not mean they are sexually attracted to each other.
    Friendship involves trust and if it is broken more than likely the person was not a friend in the true since. Be we Christians or whatever we are more likely to betray the people we say we love when they are of a different mode. This does not mean you must be the same mode to be friends, but to many people this is an absolute must.
    In general I don’t think Christians as a group are any more loyal and trustworthy than any other group. At least
    this is what I have found in my life. Simply saying ( love Jesus, and I’m born again) shouldn’t be taken to mean this person(s) are any more trustworthy than the next guy. Remember it was a Christian Nation that put thousands of Jews in the gas chambers. It was Christians who betrayed and burnt people at the cross who were accuses of being witches. Christians have committed the same hideous acts in the name of God that any non Christian group has.

    [This message has been edited by Zappers (edited January 17, 2000).]
     
  8. truestory Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Zappers,

    I agree that man has perpetrated much in the way of hideous acts. As for Hitler's regime which you allude to above, however, please read the following:

    "Once Hitler had gained power, he began to see Christianity as a threat to the National Socialists' domination of Germany. After 1935 his speeches and writings became more and more virulently anti-Christian; he argued that Christian worship was a sign of weakness, and that it should be replaced by reverence for the nation and the state, and of course for the National Socialist Party. However, he retained his belief in reincarnation, and his conviction that there was some supreme creative force whose will he was enacting.

    'The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity ... The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.

    I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews.' "


    [Quoted from Hitler's "Table Talks" with Bormann,
    in "Hitler: A Study in Tyranny" by Allan Bullock.]


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    These were not the acts of a Christian Nation, these were the acts of a nation which was being lead by a madman.



    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 17, 2000).]
     
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,884
    Truestory--

    Strip clubs? Whoa, baby ... better slow down before the excitement kills you.

    You know ... Mountlake Terrace, Washington, recently passed a law governing conduct in strip clubs inside their city. The law was passed by an overwhelming majority, though the community's own newspaper cited the notion that private prejudices motivated the "Yes" votes, since so few of those voters would admit to ever having been inside a strip club. So excuse me if I'm not breathless over that.

    The problem with testimonies of calling on Jesus while counseling a tragedy is that an equal number of anecdotes exist for those who look elsewhere for their methods of advice.

    You, however, are assuming the offense at the notion of Christians and infidels not being able to share a true friendship. It doesn't bother me because one day I might be proven wrong. That you choose to view this as negative is your own choice. Sure, it's sad, but there's a lot of people I don't get along with in the world, it's just that among this brand of philosophy, the issues that cause those discords are much closer to the surface and therefore more active in daily intercourse.

    So before you think you're more subtle than the rest, you might want to give more than: "Look, here's a person that I forgave!" I mean ... for someone who argues against generalizations, you certainly seem to reinforce them.

    Like I said ... What more than 100% do I need? Why does it have to be offensive that I'd rather skip the banging of heads against the wall and go straight to "moving on with life"?

    One of these days someone will probably prove me wrong ... however I'm quite sure that you and I would have plenty of disagreements over whether that person's conduct reflected his faith.

    Try this: I meet someone, we decide to go out on a date. She likes romances, I like obscure horror films. She likes fine French food, I like good, common Italian. She doesn't drink. I like beer, wine, and whiskey. She doesn't do drugs, I smoke pot, and occasionally take trips to the outer limits of the solar system. She likes country, I like experimental rock and roll ....

    I can find these things out about someone in FIVE minutes. I guess it's wrong to decide I probably don't want to date this person?

    Oh, or better yet: I should get a "Friends' Form":

    * I (circle one) would/would not allow my child to buy this album because it offends my religious sensibilities.

    * I (circle one) approve/disapprove/don't care about homosexuality.

    * I (circle one) approve/disapprove of one's right to die.

    * I approve/disapprove of marijuana.

    * I approve/disapprove of alcohol.


    Get the picture? Then I could save myself the trouble of actually engaging people in conversation, all so I could save myself the trouble of putting up with a few dented IQ's.

    Of course, to be fair, the Friends Form would be a full-on personality inventory, some thousand questions long, to make sure we're not leaving any wormhole gaps.

    The point is that people come together for common ideas. The common ideas that modern American Christians use to identify themselves are just absurd .... I have no obligation to have the same argument with Mike that I had with Tom last week, that Carol and I tangled over last month .... Oh, but wait ... that's the other thing ... nobody's had enough of it yet, if they haven't accepted Jesus, right?

    Yes, it is possible to accommodate a friendship with someone whose beliefs are, apparently, so inherently demanding. That amount of effort on behalf of a human being is one thing, but that effort to the cause of establishing the word "friendship" .... Well, it seems simpler to sit and wait to be proven wrong ... but do you ever carry an umbrella when it simply LOOKS like it's going to rain?

    I think part of it we're disagreeing on is simple: I think that, in theory, it's possible for an infidel to be friends with a Christian. It's a little harder for me to establish the theoretic reversal ... that a Christian can be friends with an infidel. However, as a practical application, it would essentially require that "because God says so" never comes up as a reason to or not to do anything. And that just doesn't happen.

    I could make a form, but why subject something like friendship to something so unnatural? I mean, if you insist ... I could quantify my friends and then be a friendship capitalist.

    There are segments of society I can't be friends with, for various reasons. But Christianity is the most perplexing: given the success most Christians have in demonstrating the philosophy they are advocating for your life ... I'd rather live among unrepentant thieves--at least I know hat to expect from them. Or is that presuming too much about the thieves?

    Oh ... wait a minute ... unrepentant thieves ... I'm an American. Well, that one's demonstrable now, eh?

    --Tiassa

    ------------------
    Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
     
  10. Lori Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Tiassa,

    As usual, you're stereotyping and generalizing, and taking the sin of Christians as the Word of God. I don't need a form do you? Someone would have to give me a form back...it would probably read something like this....

    1 - Are you a Christian? Yes or No

    Fact is that Flash and I are friends, and I'm friends with mostly non-believers. Not conditionally, and not with some "saviour complex" intention, but just to share and appreciate someone for exactly who they are. Jesus didn't hang out in the temple THAT much, unless the pharisees needed a lecture or two. Jesus hung with the sinners. I'm a sinner, you're a sinner, wouldn't cha like to be a sinner too? For example....Flash and I don't agree about much (duh, like that's not obvious). Like religion, sexuality, partying, you name it. But we are friends, even though this string was directed totally at me. Friends scrap sometimes, but they also make up too. Just because someone is not saved doesn't mean that they sin any more or any less than someone who is. I don't like the sin, but I love the sinner. I'm a sinner, remember. I'm not special, and I'm not above anyone else. Why don't you get that? Hey Flash, can you testify?

    ------------------
    "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

    I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
     
  11. truestory Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    tiassa,

    From what you are explaining, it still seems that you are transferring your own intolerance of Christians into an erroneous, generalized stereotype that Christians cannot be friends with non-believers because "they" refuse. It still seems to be more of a matter that "you" refuse.

    In the long-run, though, (and I mean the longest run possible) it doesn't really matter who your friends are as long as your best friend is Jesus Christ.
     
  12. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,884
    Truestory--

    I've seen carnage before. I know what happens when one puts the pistol to their head and pulls the trigger.

    Why drag two people through that when the outcome is predisposed? I mean, it's all in how you look at it. Should I start citing a mind-numbing list of examples, or do you understand the idea of one-hundred percent? Sorry, but I'm waiting for a new kind of Christian before I try beating myself senseless on their behalf. It is kind of capitalist, I admit, but hey ... that's the country I live in and the way we do things. When the relationship between Christian principle and friendship with infidels changes fundamentally, so that I can share life with that Christian on the same level I do with atheists, witches, or otherwise, then I can start rebuilding that process. But it's incumbent to the people who claim the supremacy of their philosophy to demonstrate it even a little.

    I mean, who wants to be friends with someone who threatens you all the time? That's a question you don't seem to want to answer. Who wants to be friends with someone who doesn't take you as you are ... who insists that you owe it to some force other than yourself to improve yourself in a way that they cannot demonstrate? Translate that process to anything outside of religion, and the mechanism doens't hold up. Fix that failure, and suddenly the difficulties don't seem so commonplace in the relationship of two disparately philosophical people.

    You know, one of the reasons I don't run into this problem with Jewish people, or with Muslims, Sikhs, or otherwise, is that these people know when it's time to preach; in other words, when I ask them for godly advice as a friend. It seems so much more constructive this way. And it beats your rally moan:

    "Sure you don't like the way we treat you, but don't we deserve more respect than you're giving us?"

    Keep moaning, True .... The simple fact is that "prejudice" is negative when it involves unfounded ideas. What more than 100% is needed to constitute an idea's validity for argument? And we'll speak nothing of practice. If you can't figure that out, then try this: Nothing you believe is valid without a certain degree of assumption. If you do manage to put that 2 and 2 together, try this: 100% consistent experience forces a degree of assumption.

    You see, that's what infidels like about the scientific method: we can apply it without fear of contradicting God. We can apply it to people. And yes, sometimes, then, we are looking specifically for that behavior we find unpleasant, but that's part of human nature that transcends even Christianity.

    But people who can do that learn when they don't need to enter a situation.

    A fundamental difference to consider here is that your Gospel is fact to you ... would I ask a friend to utterly defy what they believe is fact? And a "fact" that carries such a grand stake? But that suspension of alleged fact is what's necessary for two people to communicate--the ability to seek common terms. Judging solely by the ideas you've expressed throughout these posts, that common term is when everyone gets Christ and accepts the Gospel you call Truth.

    Gotta admit, though ... that method cuts down on workplace diversity issues.

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    --Tiassa

    ------------------
    Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
     
  13. truestory Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    tiassa,

    Intolerance and exclusion based on the assumption of "predisposition" only serves to maintain a 100% stagnant position.

    It further serves to exemplify one's generalized prejudice towards certain individuals based on perceived stereotypes.

    Generalizations are not always bad things, though. For example... We "all" have something in common in that we are "all" God's children. God has offered the gift of salvation to us "all."

    Generally speaking, this is a good thing.
     
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,884
    Truestory--

    Why don't you outline some of the basic tenets of the faith you hold. I'm quite sure that I've heard them all before (excepting that wonderful, individual spin), and I'm quite sure I've known an association to be strained over it.

    And you might try being a little more definite than "I believe in Jesus, praise God!"

    And then we can talk about that. But your position seems to assume as much as anyone else's. Your choice to be Christian often necessitates certain suspensions of future choice--that is, you give those choices up when you become Christian. Sorry, but those basic tenets of Christianity suspends too many choices, and that suspension bleeds over.

    It could also be that our definitions of friendship are different. But definitions don't seem to matter to you when they differ from yours.

    So what is it? Are you willing to examine how points of Christian faith can interrupt two people's relationships? Are you willing to examine definitions of friendship? Or are you just blowing smoke and jangling your bag of nails?

    --Tiassa

    PS--If God's salvation is a good thing, then you know what it is, eh? That would make you the first person since Christ to have a better idea of what God's will is. Generally speaking, that salvation is a crock. If it's a good crock, it'll make fondue.

    ------------------
    Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
     
  15. Lori Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Tiassa,

    Are you giving me the brush-off or what? Didn't anything I just said make any sense? I'd like a response, cause I know that it did, and if it did, then this debate would cease. Let's review...

    THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES

    EVERYONE is a sinner, no greater no less, believers and non-believers alike.

    As far as sin is concerned among everyone, the ONLY difference between believers and non-believers is that believers admit it and ask for forgiveness and non-believers do not admit that the concept of sin even exists.

    It is entirely probable that in this world you will find believers who sin more than non-believers and vice versa. In God's eyes, it is all the same. We may have different circumstances, different sins, different outcomes, but what we must not have are EXCUSES AND RATIONALIZATIONS. In this world, everyone has the same divine responsibilities, and everyone will fall miserably short of what those really are. We don't even know what they are. We are so far away from the Ideal, that it's impossible to even picture. But that's no excuse not to try.

    For those of us who are aware, it is written that for a sinner to look down upon another sinner, to suggest that his own sin is lesser than the other, is just committing another sin to add to the pile that EVERYONE has.

    Game over.

    Let me ask you this, lazy-butt, instead of waiting around to find the perfect Christian who doesn't exist, why don't you set out to be the first ever perfect Christian yourself? You are shopping for the truth and will believe the savviest salesman? Now that's an approach all right. Bravo.

    ------------------
    "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

    I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
     
  16. Zappers Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    44
    Truestory

    I've had a lot going on these last few months with Y2K at work and selling my place and I'm still pressed for time now but I do want to respond to your post in the near furture.
    Take care.
     
  17. Zappers Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    44
    Flash / Lori

    Sorry about the falling out between you two people. I just became aware of the problems today when I had time to go over some of the past posting.

    I just want to say that what I said earlier was not in response to your falling out with each other. In fact had I known jI would have stayed away from this posting rather than fan the flames by saying something for or against you all. When I attack, I try and do it face to face and not in a round about way.

    My only interest in this forum is to try and point out we are all pretty much the same regardless of what we do or don't believe and is not to go after anybody in particular. I normally try and keep quiet unless I feel people are beating up the underdog, and this I have no tolerance for.

    Anyway, hope your wounds heal and you can both move on without real real bad feeling about each other.
     
  18. truestory Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    tiassa,

    Sorry but, based on what I have seen thus far in this thread and others, I don't think that the exercises which you suggest would be very fruitful.

    A simple review of the question and answers in this thread should suffice:

    THE QUESTION:

    "Christians... can they really be friends to non-believers?"

    THE ANSWERS:

    Micah - Yes.

    Skye - Yes. (Moreso as they mature, it seems)

    Oxygen - Yes.

    ISDAMan - Yes

    H-kon - Non-responsive at first. Later... Yes, but only a few.

    Tab - Non-commital. (Relayed personal experience as a so-called Christian. Did say that he had non-Christian friends at the time).

    Vinnie - Yes.

    Christian - Yes.

    Tony - Yes.

    Zapper - Yes, but no more so than others.

    Lori - Yes.

    truestory - Yes.

    tiassa - No. (Because Christians refuse).

    *** AS YOU CAN SEE TIASSA, AFTER FIVE DAYS, YOU ARE STILL THE ONLY ONE THUS FAR WHO HAS EMPHATICALLY RESPONDED "NO" TO THE QUESTION... 100%, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN... ADDITIONALLY, YOU BLAME IT ON "CHRISTIAN REFUSAL" ***

    What more do we need to see???

    From your continued expansion of your original answer, it is clear to see that the real answer is... tiassa can't get along with a lot of people in this world and tiassa definitely cannot be friends with Christians because tiassa refuses.

    Please, do yourself a favor and seek the love, peace and joy of Jesus Christ. It's quite refreshing. It helps you to learn to love other people.


    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 19, 2000).]
     
  19. truestory Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Zappers,

    Thanks. Yes... I saw your previous posts about how busy you are... best of luck with EVERYTHING... look forward to hearing from you when you are settled.
     
  20. Flash Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    771
    Well.... as Lori pointed out..this was directed at her as a result of our falling out. However, it has been my past experience that the christian "friends" I had met.... well..it was if I became more of a project all so they could shout glory...look at what we accomplished. I really do not want to get into that part of it... Let's just say I have had bad experiences with the christians throughout my life... they only accepted me as a normal person when I finally caved and started going to church... but, I in turn was living a lie just to shut them up. It wasn't real..and it was wrong. I guess you could say I became just as fake as they were. So..I was no better than they in that respect.
    Lori and I have shared with one another how odd it is that we ever became friends...it STILL has me puzzled today...
    I apologize for the things that all of you had to witness between Lori and I. I can say though... our blood bath is over. We have found a middle ground...and I'm even taking a whole new approach in how I answer things...be it here or e-mail. It's very hard..and that is mainly why I am not posting as much. She doesn't like how I have slammed Jesus the way I do and post evasive answers....I do not like how she has shared things about me without my go ahead... we both are working on this. I had to quit looking at this as christian vs. non-christian
    frienship...Instead I look at this friendship as one I want to salvage. Hopefully Lori and I can one day learn from one another.....whoaaaaaaaaa..wouldn't that be something

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    Zappers,
    There is no need to apologize...I am the one that owes that apology... soooo I am sorry that this happened the way it did.
     
  21. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    Thanks, Flash...

    Nice to see you back... I think we are all "learning" here.

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  22. Flash Registered Senior Member

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    TS,
    Thanks for the welcome back...
    You think? Learning is not a bad thing, huh?..

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  23. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    Are you kidding me?

    If I truly had the means, I would be a "professional" student!

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