Christians .....can they really be friends to non-believers???

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Flash, Jan 14, 2000.

  1. Micah Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    48
    Thanks to all who are honest and speak sincerely from your hearts. I have learned alot since I have visited this forum.. I have seen the enemy at work also here trying to bring dissension and divide further the truth of Christ. The christians mission should not be to knock a non believer over the head and push them into believing.. rather by being a true friend, by standing by those even if they hurt or offend - By just being there... Yet none of us are perfect - but thats where you separate the spirit from the flesh...

    ...Avoid profane, idle talk, for such people will become more and more godless, and their teaching will spread like gangrene. 2Tim16,17
     
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  3. MoonCat Registered Senior Member

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    Truestory, tiassa-

    I think you're both right, but only to a point. My feeling is that the truth is somewhere between your two thoughts.

    Truestory - I have also had people decide not to be my friend in the first place because I was not Christian. The lost friend I listed sticks out because she WAS my friend, then she was NOT.

    I once met a girl in a college class, and ended up as her lab partner. We seemed to get along really well in class, so I invited her to go to coffee with me after class. She asked me "Do you go to church?" I said no, she said "there's your answer." Now, I don't care how strong your beliefs are, that was just plain rude. Next monday I got a new lab partner.

    I don't think it's 100%, like Tiassa does - but there is definitely a huge percentage that IS like that. I don't know if catagorizing my answer as "yes" is really what I meant - I think it's more like a "depends on the individual". A lot of Christians seem to identify SO strongly with the Christian faith that they lose sight of the rest of the world. A zealot doesn't neccessarily have to be immature, though they do seem to go hand in hand quite often.

    This IS the "Religious Debate" forum, but I wonder - if I were to meet Lori or Truestory face to face, could we keep the topic away from Jesus and God? I don't know, it's difficult to say. (Hope this isn't offending anyone, I don't mean for it to) I know I could hold my mug about the God and Goddess, but my faith isn't really built around discussing it with others. There is no such thing as a witch witness. LOL! What an idea!

    Anyway, there's a thought or two...
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Lori--

    I'll quote Bill Maher: "Get over yourself."

    And of course I'm not Christian. Period. I'm not dumb enough to fall for that mess of lies again. I try to be patient with it ... heck, I even try to understand it. But, strangely, what gets in the way of my understanding that odd religion is the people who take part in it.

    I mean, if the anger you show is what constitutes the peace of the Lord, then I've got a few things left to figure out about the definitions of words. I don't deny that anybody is capable of feeling a religious passion. I don't deny them that right. But it's hard to make any progress in any system when the words used to describe it don't reflect what I see. It's a simple idea, really. There are times when my principles don't work. I'll stand there, and the situation utterly defies the balance of my regard. And so my regard ... my principles ... adapt and evolve. There are certain aspects of that adaption that are inherently wrong in Christianity. These aspects pertain to moral assessments and the resulting decisions. It is not merely theory when I say that there comes a time when one NEEDS their friends to come through for them, and frankly, ideas of God and sin are the consistent reason for my feelings regarding Christians as friends. Consistently, God wins, and it's plain when it happens, because it shouldn't. And you can dismiss each individual who has ever behaved inappropriately in any way because "we all sin". C'mon ... did, "None of us are perfect" work on your mother when you were a kid?

    You seem to think that this is a bare standard, with no process behind it. Of course we all go forward, trying to get along. But, observationally, this is how things seem to have gone. I can accommodate people philosophically because my philosophy allows for it. But there are certain parts of Christianity that are unbending in that aspect ... these issues are more commonplace than you seem to want to admit. Sure, you can love the sinner and hate the sin ... but that's a paradox of Christianity. You want to respect the sinner's right to sin, but you're leaving your "friend" to hang out in danger's way. That idea, I can grasp. But it leaves the friendship hanging on a Damocles-sword of faith that is not perfect, as principle would insist God to be, but subject to human whim, interpretation, and reconsideration. It seems to me that any friendship under such duress equates to calling people my friends because I've smoked pot with them. These people aren't my friends ... that word is reserved for something a little more special than a guy on the next barstool, or a friendly face seen at the bus stop every morning. It goes beyond social engagements with coworkers.

    Does it make sense to you that there are certain behaviors which are unbecoming of friends? Does it make sense to you that the confines of various ideas of faith can create those circumstances?

    Quite simply, the issues that interfere with friendships between Christians and infidels will, eventually, run into a wall where it is the infidel's will versus God's will. Let that stake simmer and it will only undermine the bonds of that friendship. This, essentially, is the process that I choose not to need, and hope not to inflict on others. One need not proactively seek it ... it happens.

    And, yes, it is a shame. It doesn't preclude friendship between infidels and Christians. As I've admitted, someday someone will demonstrate that this perspective no longer applies. But I'm still wondering what social issues will bring about the change in the processes of human conscience that will alleviate the stress of "friendship" versus a mandate from the Supreme Ruler of the Universe. After all, if my friends don't want to go to the ends of the universe, that's fine. If they can't because Dad won't let them come out to play ... that's their choice to interpret the Word that way. And someday, someone will choose around that and I will be demonstrated wrong within my own little corner of the universe. But until then, I'd rather not waste my time or theirs. It's a state of friendship that does not equal friendship to me ... it's dependent on too many artificial conventions.

    The only way around it that I can see is if religion and spirituality never enter the friendship ... that, too, I find artificial.

    And I refuse to desecrate the notion of friendship in that manner.


    --Tiassa

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    Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
     
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  7. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    1,065
    Listen Tiassa,

    I'm sorry. The only reason that I give you so much crap is because you sure can dish it out. All I'm trying desparately to explain to you is this....if Christians aren't good friends to non-believers, then they are going directly AGAINST the word of God that is in the Bible. Doesn't that make any difference to you, cause I would swear that you're trying to say that a big reason that you reject the faith is because of these actions of Christians, which I whole-heartedly admit to being true in SOME cases. Ok, maybe in many cases, but that still doesn't make it right, and you won't find justification for it in the Bible. In fact you will find that the exact kind of behavior that you are referring to is denounced as sin. Now are you telling me that you are going to let other people's mistakes and egos get in the way of your understanding? That's what I meant by lazy-butt. It just does NOT make logical sense. And doesn't it count for ANYTHING that I'm a Christian, and remain friends with all of my family (who are not) and all of my friends (who are not)? Doesn't that say ANYTHING?

    ------------------
    "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

    I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,884
    Lori--

    Of course I get that difference. That's part of my whole problem with Christianity. I think that most Christians are actually "going against" the Bible. That's why the Word is so vague now. Certes we have the words in the book, but they're subject to so much interpretation.

    And I'm happy that your sense of family can work within your faith; that is not always so. But the difference to me between friends and family is who grew up where. It has nothing to do with our regard for those other people; I feel closer to a certain one or two of my friends--thus, they become my family, in that ideal sense.

    So, yes, it does mean something that you can get along with your familial relations. But the fact that they are that sense of family adds another factor to the equation, which changes my basic regard for the nature of that interpersonal exchange.

    But as to your assertion that I reject faith because of the actions of some certain Christians ... that's a serious issue, yes. And though I'm not sure we can bring it back to relevance for this specific topic, I offer you this: On the one hand, I can simply say that those "imperfect" Christians need to shout down their politically-motivated brethren, else they let those ill words and deeds represent Christ's house; in that sense, it isn't the acts, but the rush of the Christian community to deflect those words and deeds ... true, we all know that person isn't a Christian, but the Christian community seems to think he is--something like that. And when we cut that whole issue away, we still come to a certain snag.

    What is the "real" message of God ... specifically, how are the cheap answers to be interpreted? I understand the rhetorical campaigns. But what does that rhetoric mean? If billions of Christians in the past were imperfect, so, too is that idea they're preaching. Nobody knows what God's will is, and in that sense, I think exhortations to obey that will are therefore bogus. It's a credibility issue that does affect friendships ... it's tantamount to certain "forms" of lying, which most people seem to hold acceptable. It's arrogance in another sense. I don't want that to be me ... and I try to avoid those quagmires in general. As for avoidance ... if it happens to be that the majority of those persons are Christian, it's just a tragedy of the circumstances of human relationships. I mean ... I've never held Muslim or Jewish extremists in my immediate company, either. It isn't that they're Muslim or Jewish ... it's that I find their logical structures extreme, rigid, and possibly dangerous ... that's why we call them extremists. To link that to the topic at hand, as relates Christians, would probably require an Encyclopaedia's worth of argument 'twixt us.

    --Tiassa

    ------------------
    Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
     
  9. truestory Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    MoonCat,

    Actually, you and I seem to be in 100% agreement here... "it depends on the individual"...
     
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,884
    Truestory--

    Since you have it all so wrapped up, I'm almost not sure what there is to say.

    So I might ask you to define friendship.

    Actually, I will.

    What's your definition of friendship? Or is the idea of considering that subjectivity just too extreme?

    And then I think I need you to explain what priorities you hold in your friendships.

    But you've failed to answer yet another question. That, in and of itself, is of no real importance, except that Christians are supposed to be more forthright than that.

    So, again ... "What more than 100% do I need?"

    It's mathematically impossible for me to exceed this ratio in my experiences. However, if you so insist, I can go out of my way, sell my priorities out, and find a Christian to be friends with. But for now, I think if such issues are going to affect the potential of friendships, it's up to the Christians I meet to overcome their hangups on sin and dominion. Period. You seem to have a problem with the fact that people sometimes want to stop banging their head against the wall. In the end, Christianity is nothing more than a belief. If I believe differently from someone, it is possible to reconcile those differences. However, at what point does God's law become flexible? Friendship is not: "I disapprove of what you do, and find your moral character to be in disrepute, but I'm not going to mention it because it's polite." That's not friendship, and that's part of the conditions I refuse to subject friendships to.

    Don't cry foul just because you've got a label to name your philosophy by. Bad ideas are bad ideas. Do you accommodate bad ideas in your home merely on the pretense that you MIGHT be wrong? (In that case, what bad ideas will you tolerate?)

    In another post, ISDAMan wrote:

    "If I have an employee that is a homosexual and he keeps his business his, I have no cause against him. Everyone, be they Christian or not will be made aware that there are Christian standards of the house. I will go out of my way for any in my charge! There is no exception."

    Now ... yes, we know that this is one person. Yes, we know that this is not you.

    Is this statement fair, as regards an employer/employee relationship?

    If so, how does it apply to friendship?

    This "love the sinner/hate the sin" psychology is just a cheap excuse to exercise dominion over people. It's a hard construct that barely holds up in the first place, yet its device is common in relations of faith.

    So, in the end, True ... if I were you I would stop dodging questions like a two-bit crook from a bad gangster movie. Furthermore, I would not try rhetorical spins... after all, when you ignore the question and try to be cute with your YELLING and such ... well, it shows the True Story of your faith.

    Of course, it is entirely possible that I have the wrong impression of Christians. After all, your narrow rhetorical style is one well familiar to me ... sorry about the fact that it's one of the earliest generalizations of mine you ever objected to, but you're fitting the mold better than if I set you up deliberately. So it could be that there are Christians out there who are actually more intelligent than the depths you're willing to expose through your arguments. But so far, your relentlessly accusatory and paranoid notions, combined with Lori's bouts of invective, need no stereotype ... they may reflect the generalization, but they speak for themselves.

    Besides, what better alternatives have you provided, other than that stupid "find the peace of Jesus"? O wise one, what would you recommend?

    My choices seem threefold, in the immediate context ... A) Keep going through the same motions, even though I think the personal anguish suffered by both participants in such a dispute is unnecessary and therefore cruel; B) Hold my own and wait for the opportunity to let myself be proven wrong (that's my favorite); or C) proactively seek a Christian who is (IMHO) "capable" of sharing a friendship.


    Well ... as I said, A is cruel. B is my current mode of operation. But if I engage C, I'm suddenly discriminating against every religion except Christianity, since I'm out on the limb for Christians.

    But then again, relating to individuals of those other faiths has not been so problematic.

    But what's your suggestion? After all, you seem to know ALL the answers.

    By the way ... my first post in this topic was my opinion. Would you prefer that I should have stood only on that and ignored your recycling of what I've heard in every other topic we've argued in? I can be that disrespectful if you want ... after all, I should ask you how hard it is to dodge every question that isn't stated to your perfect satisfaction?

    What you fail to grasp is that people who hold opinions like mine don't just sit back with the quiet confidence of a Christian and know that all of their assumptions are right and justified by God. Were we to carry on that way, such thinkers would not have abandoned the church in the first place; we would have been content with clomping around and abusing people with our philosophy. I have only met perhaps one person in my life who was taught to hate Christians for being Christians. For me, and for many non-Christians I know, it's simply a matter of having heard enough BS from Christians.

    We couldn't have made these opinions up without the kind help of wonderful Christian thinkers like yourself. Of course, we wouldn't have felt compelled to by the reeking hypocrisy we perceived, and the inability of our elders, teachers, or otherwise, to reconcile those perceptions without stupid fluff answers like "trust in Jesus."

    So are you going to answer the questions asked of you? Or will we get another deflection?

    For the time being, I will be happy with a short list:

    * What is your definition of friendship?
    * What more than 100% is required before I'm allowed to hold my opinion?
    * Can a friendship be equitable if one of the friends "loves the sinner and hates the sin"?

    I can't imagine you need any more context, but if you still haven't grasped the questions well enough, serve up some more of that classic S.O.S. and maybe we'll all choke in the excess.

    Answers, True .... I'd appreciate them before you start throwing my one-liners back at me ... it gives you at least some credibility as a thinker.

    --Tiassa

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    ------------------
    Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
     

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