Christians - Your Testimonies Please

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by c20H25N3o, May 20, 2004.

  1. Lemming3k Insanity Gone Mad Registered Senior Member

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    1,180
    c20H25N3o i think that pretty much sums it up, do i need a god to be happy? Everything that happens in the world will still be there with or without a god so i might aswell enjoy myself, if i go to hell for not believing then so be it at least i will have enjoyed what i've got now and that may be all there is, thats just my philosophy on life though and i would apoligise to god if i ever see him but i cant believe on faith alone, if that is done to me or him is debatable but i'll do my best to be a good person regardless.
     
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  3. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    Hi Lemming3k

    I was wrong about what I thought. The person that thought that was changed. Not into some spooky spook

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    but just changed. Eyes opened so to speak.
    I think what you think is perfectly understandable! Why wouldn't I or why couldn't I understand it? I dont think it makes you a 'bad' person to feel the way you do but there is something that puzzles me in what you said...

    The above does sound defeatest. Like ... 'its all bad', 'whatever', 'we die', 'I'm just rollin with it'

    Yep - you can go through your whole life like that and then die. No worries. It doesn't make you a 'bad' person cos it doesn't mean anything. Its not your fault.

    Personally I think for you to be so defeatest is a real pity. You have loads of great things going for you I've no doubt. Intelligence, humour, wit, love, laughs etc. No need to hang your head and just accept this defeat! Stand up and be counted or ...

    carry the guilt that you feel, never being able to offload it cos theres too big a blockage in the pipeline i.e ..'you cant believe on faith alone.'
    I love to use the 'God is Love' idea to explain what faith is. When two people meet and fall in love, they are in quite vulnerable states. They experience extraodinary emotions and feel the most wonderful things. They give a very special part of 'their' person to the other. When they are not together, they trust that the bit they gave the other will be kept unadulterated. They trust that the other will take their heart and keep it free from impurity. If they were together in eachothers arms, trust would mean nothing because there would be no temptation. But without trust, how would we know the love was true? Its when they are apart that trust has meaning. If God says 'Believe in me and you will be saved' and the bible says 'Without faith you cannot please God.", surely you are better off making peace with God in your heart in faith and then moving on with your head held up.

    At a basic psychological level that makes sense to me anyway.

    peace

    c20 :m:
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2004
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  5. DeeCee Valued Senior Member

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    So thats my role in life is it? To please God?
    I'm so glad we got that cleared up.

    So how does god take his tea?
    One sugar or two?
    Dee Cee
     
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  7. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    Nope your role is not to please him to placate some idle megalomaniacle tendancies that God may have. No! Your challenge if you like is to have enough 'faith' in Him that he would rescue 'you' from your perishable flesh. You cannot escape the fact that you are gonna die. Thats your challenge. If you rise to that challenge and trust something outside of yourself to deal with a very sticky problem that you yourself cannot overcome, you will please God as a consequence and you would have shown humility of spirit.

    Why would that please God? Because you had come to Him like a child and put your entire life in His hands. He knows you love Him. Thats why He is pleased.
     
  8. Q25 Registered Senior Member

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    593
    problem is theres no spirits,souls,
    death is the end,
    heres an interesting bit on how people came to believe in spirits;
    from www.atheists.org

    SPIRIT, SOUL, AND MIND

    by Frank R. Zindler
    The Probing Mind, February 1985

    Whenever I peruse a dictionary, I am struck by the amazing number of words which refer to nothing at all in the real world. Many of the words are obviously fabulous: leprechaun, unicorn, gremlin, Philosopher's Stone, Zeus, elf, Fountain of Youth, ghost, etc. Others, though referring equally to non-existent things, are less obviously fabulous: The Mean Sun, The Average Citizen, vital force, spirit, soul, and - in at least some of its accepted meanings - mind.

    Why the human species has invented so many words which refer to nothing in reality is a most interesting question for scientific investigation, and probably would require a complete book to elucidate properly. In this article I shall only attempt to deal with a few such words, specifically, the words spirit, soul, and mind.

    It is a striking fact that nearly all languages of the world, extinct as well as extant, have — or have had — words which could be rendered as 'spirit' or 'soul' in English, At first glance, it would seem that this is a good argument in favor of the real existence of souls and spirits. For, would it not be improbable that so many different peoples and languages could be mistaken? If many different unrelated languages have independently invented words for soul, is that not a good reason to believe they did so because there really is such a thing?

    I think not. The first clue to the solution of this puzzle comes from etymology, the study of word origins.

    While the origin of the English word soul is obscure, the word almost certainly had its origin in a word which meant 'breath' or 'wind' or 'air', or something like that. The word spirit — generally a synonym for soul — comes from the Latin spiritus, and clearly meant 'breath' originally. Spiritual and respiratory both derive from the same root!

    Moreover, if we check in the Greek and Hebrew bibles to see which words are translated as 'soul', etc., in the King James Version, we will find many whose literal meaning is 'breath' or 'wind'. For example, the Hebrew word neshamah (literally meaning 'breath') is twice rendered as 'spirit', once as 'soul'. The Hebrew-Aramaic word ruach (lit., 'wind') is rendered 240 times as 'spirit', six times as 'mind.' The word nephesh (lit., 'breath') is rendered 'soul' 428 times) 'mind' 15 times, 'ghost' twice, and 'life' 119 times. Turning to the Greek Bible, we find pneuma (lit., 'breath') rendered as 'ghost' 91 times (including the rendering 'Holy Ghost'), 292 times as 'spirit'. The reader will recognize the same root in the word pneumonia, a word referring to a disease of the organs of breath. And finally, in this somewhat pedantic parade of words, we may note the important word psyche. As expected, its literal meaning is 'breath.' As we might have guessed, it is rendered as 'soul' 58 times, 'mind' three times, and life' 40 times.

    The fact that nearly all words now meaning 'soul', 'spirit', 'life', etc., trace their origins to words meaning 'breath' or 'wind' leads me to conclude that the derived meanings were an outgrowth of the inability of primitive people to solve a basic biological puzzle, namely, what constitutes the difference between a live body and a dead one?

    To the ancient authors of the Bible — men who still thought they were living on a flat earth beneath a solid sky (firmament) — the solution seemed deceptively simple: living things breathe, dead things do not. At first, only animals (from Latin anima, meaning 'breath' or 'breeze' originally) were considered fully alive. The case of plants was viewed with confusion for a long time. Some authorities considered them live, others did not. The ancients did not realize that 'souls' were really only a gaseous mixture of nitrogen and oxygen, contaminated with varying amounts of water vapor, carbon dioxide, noble gases, and — depending upon what one ate and whether or not one brushed after every meal — varying amounts of aromatic substances!

    In the Genesis Creation Myth, the animating power of breath is clearly depicted. God, after having molded Adam from the dust, has to breathe into him the breath of life in order for him to become a living soul. Breath is life.

    The manner in which breath became equated with life is not difficult to discern. A person newly dead, say, of a heart attack, anatomically is not much different from what he was like before he died. He still has five fingers per hand, a tongue in his mouth, a brain in his head, and a heart in his breast. The ancients, unconscious of the microcosmic fever of chemical marriages and divorces that we call metabolism, could see only one obvious difference: the lack of breath of the dead.

    When a man expired (lit., 'breathed out'), his spirit (lit., 'breath') left his body, and he died. When a man sneezed, his spirit was forcefully ejected from his body, and one had to say "God bless you" or make a magical gesture, such as the sign of the cross, very quickly, before evil spirits could come to take over the momentarily spiritually vacant carcass. Demonic "possession" was the result, quite simply, of inhaling one or more of the evil breaths thought to hover in the air around us. For early Christians, the Devil's breath was everywhere.

    Of course, not all possession was necessarily evil. People could become "inspired" - that is, the breath of a god could take over their bodies to deliver words of wisdom or apocalyptic admonitions. Indeed, the origin of the Christian church itself was thought to have originated in an act of mass possession by the Holy Ghost ("Holy Breath" in the Greek text!). In Acts 4:31 we read that when the Apostles and others "had ended their prayer, the building where they were assembled rocked, and all were filled with the Holy Spirit [breath] and spoke the word of God with boldness." (Given the close association of words with breath - thought to be life itself — is it any wonder that religions of all kinds have always focused on the magical significance of words?)

    Lest anyone still think the link between breath and the foundations of Christianity be doubtful, attention is drawn to the tale running through John 20:22. Jesus has come back to visit the Disciples to tell them that he is sending them out to forgive or not forgive the sins of the world. "Then he [Jesus] breathed on them, saying, 'Receive the Holy Spirit!' " Right from the beginning, Christianity was based upon warm breath — which in time became hot air.

    Modern biologists, unlike the ancient makers of myths, know that all the phenomena of living systems can be reduced to physical and chemical terms. They have no evidence of any 'vital force' or mystical spirit — and no need to seek for such. They recognize the fully alive body and the newly dead body to be but two arbitrary points along a continuum of decreasing organization.

    So much for spirit, soul, and ghost. Originally denoting breath or wind, they are words which have acquired a host of mystical connotations as prescientific people attempted to account for the difference between life and death. But what of the word mind? Does it refer to anything real? Or is it, too, a fabulous entity?

    Unlike the analysis of spirit and soul, the analysis of mind is not at all simple. This is so largely through the grammatical accident that in all the European languages, ancient as well as modern, the word mind is a noun.

    We tend to think of nouns as substantive: table, chair, and plumb-bob are all nouns, and all are substantial. There are many words, however, which though grammatically nouns, are not at all substantial. Words like beauty, truth, and velocity would be examples. Unfortunately, our thinking tends to be hedged around by the grammar and hidden assumptions of the language with which we think. And so it happens again and again that abstract nouns come to be thought of as representing things just as substantial as those represented by common nouns. And thus we have the basic confusion necessary to found philosophical systems such as Plato's — whose perfect triangularity exists in triangle-heaven, and so on.

    Because mind was a noun, it was conceived to be a thing. Because it was thought to be a thing, it was thought to have existence apart from the brain. Because it has independent existence, it was thought capable of survival after the death of the body. And millions thought that to be good reason to invest millions in that greatest of all businesses, religion

    Neurobiological studies show all these ideas to be quite worthless. Mind is a process, a dynamic relation, and not a thing. If we change the processes of the brain, we change the mind. The psychedelic drugs have taught us that fact, if nothing else. The history of western philosophy and religion, as well as science, would have been quite different if the word mind had developed as a verb instead of as a noun.

    To wonder where the mind goes after the brain decays is as silly as asking where the 70-miles-per-hour have gone after a speeding auto has crashed into a tree. Just as the relative motion of an auto can be altered only within certain limits and still represent the process called "speeding," so too we can alter the functioning of the brain only so much before the process called "mind" or "thinking" becomes altered out of existence.

    Now that scientists recognize mind as a process rather than a thing, they are making rapid advances in understanding the specific brain dynamics that correspond to the various subjective states collectively known as mind. Certain drugs are known, for example, that affect certain neural paths and centers in the brain to produce the psychic state known as euphoria. Others affect other circuits and produce depression or sleep. We can implant electrodes in the brain and cause the subject to "hear" bells and symphonies that aren't "there" at all. We can be made to "see" figures and lights without using our eyes at all, by stimulating the visual cortex at the back of the brain. We can cause to appear the emotions of rage, sexuality, sorrow, religious awe, etc., by altering the dynamic functions of the brain in appropriate ways. We are beginning to understand how neural circuits compete with each other to give us the illusion of "free will." Indeed, we are on the verge of being able to write equations relating the physicochemical states of the nervous system with the subjective, mental states described by psychologists and other mystics. In short, we are learning to study subjective states objectively.

    ...
    ---------------------------------
    makes sense doesnt it?

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  9. Bells Staff Member

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    Ah Hathor.. my lil rank one. Seeing that the thread was so long, I just glanced through it and I must have missed the fact that he had started programming at seven years of age. And I'm sorry if I offended you for the way that I addressed C20. But you can rest assured that he merely answered the question I asked and he didn't seem to be offended by the joke I made. But next time I'll be sure to check in with you first before I ask anyone any questions on here so as not to insult your delicate sensibilities or in case you think I'm trolling.

    Thanks for getting the joke. I have a little cousin who's also into computers and programming and he's 13 at the moment. But like you he spends most of his time playing sports and swimming and out with friends and the computer stuff he does has a hobby when he's finished his homework early. Although I don't think he's ever popped a beetle with a magnifying glass. :bugeye:

    A friend of mine also has the same problem as you do with the scar tissue along your spine as she injured herself riding a quad bike along the sand dunes and the result of the accident was extensive surgery. She's now a brilliant watercolour artist. She took all her energy that she had in riding quads, surfing, etc and put it into painting, a talent she discovered after the accident. And she does really well. She's into doing portraits now and works on commission.
     
  10. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Three. He/she needs the sugar kick to do all that he/she does.
     
  11. Katazia Black Mamba Registered Senior Member

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    743
    C20,

    Of course we will mess up, it is inevitable. That is the nature of evolutionary processes, some paths lead to extinction and others to survival. Of the many things we will attempt in our journey to improve ourselves, some will end in failure and some otherwise; our best hope is to learn quickly from the mistakes and progress.

    The alternative to not trying is stagnation and eventual extinction when the next major meteorite hits the planet. Religion promotes stagnation and an acceptance of death; it is the way of the lemmings.

    There is no failure except in no longer trying. Anonymous.

    You are the result of billions of years and a largely random and an entirely undirected set of evolutionary processes. And after all that time of continuous changes you are still a mess. You only live a few years before you decay and die, you incur pain, your teeth rot quickly and easily, 50% of the world have defective eyesight, and you can only survive in symbiosis with bacteria (essential for digestion), and if you have ever studied cell biology closely then you will have seen the nightmare of metabolic pathways where the ravages of evolutionary changes have left their mark in redundant, duplicate and conflicting processes.

    For the first time in the history of life on this planet we are at the beginning of being able to change and direct our own future evolutionary path, whether it be through genetic engineering or through technology or probably both. What has taken billions of years for evolution to create we will probably make far more vast changes in just a few decades.

    The ridiculous religious fantasy you have chosen has only death as the outcome, and fear of change and adaptation. As with any aspect of human life any progress and success is the result of an adventurous and courageous few who have the insight and intelligence to pave the way and where the sheep of the mindless majority will eventually follow or be left behind to die.

    Enjoy your short life while you can, it is your only life, and there is absolutely no evidence that there is anything else. If you truly want to live and survive then your only real practical hope lies with the scientists and the technologists, whether you like that or not.

    Kat
     
  12. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    2,017
    All scientists can tell me is why things happen the way they do. They attribute names to processes and map the physical world around them. They can tell me that there was a huge explosion at the beginning which spewed all that we know into our known Universe.
    No one can tell me 'Why' its there or 'why' it happened or why I should have a desire to live forever with no apparent means to do so.
    These are mysteries that science alone will never be able to explain. The seed is a tiny thing. It is sown in the ground and it is watered. The sun shines upon it and it bursts into life giving pleasure to my eyes and filling my being with delight. I stand in awe of this tiny miracle. I may know what happens inside the seed, I may know its genetic patterns. I may be able to predict its number of days from sprouting from the soil. I still stand in awe of the tiny miracle that is a seed.

    peace

    c20 :m:
     
  13. SVRP Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    262
    Three external reasons why I believe there is a God.

    First, the Bible is unique because it claims to be inspired by God.
    "It's hard for us to consider the profound impact of this text on human history without thinking that there was a divine hand in its authorship, whether the human author was one or many.” (Quote from StraightDope website)
    http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible1.html)

    It is also a history book of the Israeli people, which has been substantiated by archaeology. Even archaeologists have used the Old Testament to locate cities and other places of interest.
    http://www.tamilchrist.ch/archaeology/Moses/Mt_ Sinai Found.htm
    http://www.tamilchrist.ch/archaeology/Moses/Red Sea Crossing.htm

    Second, Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecies for the “Suffering Messiah”. The OT has prophecies of a “Conquering Messiah,” which the Jewish people wanted and are waiting for, and a “Suffering Messiah.” These prophecies came from people who were tested under Moses’ requirement of a true prophet of God. Their predictions had to be 100% accurate, and during the history of the Israeli nation these OT prophets had shown their accuracy to be 100%. The Old Testament gives a clear outline as to who, what, where and how the Messiah will appear.
    http://www.yeshuatyisrael.com/moshiach.htm
    http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/messiah/messiah.htm

    Third, the witness of the disciples who saw Jesus after He was crucified, buried, and resurrected. They were bold enough to take the message of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead to the world. If they had not seen it with their own eyes it would be doubtful they would have given their lives for something they weren’t sure of. Jesus gave the responsibility of proclaiming His resurrection and the “good news” to the Apostles. For that they faced horrible executions, which is a strong indication they actually saw the resurrected Christ and believed what they taught. The testimony of seeing the resurrected Jesus was written with their blood. It is doubtful they would have been able to do this great work of spreading the gospel if they did not really believe that they had seen the risen Lord with their own eyes.
    http://www.biblepath.com/apostles.html
     
  14. Katazia Black Mamba Registered Senior Member

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    743
    C20,

    Then consider that there may be no answer to “why” – just because you desire an answer doesn’t mean that there is one, and imagining an answer gives no relationship to truth.

    Nonsense, science is the search for knowledge. Science offers the only proven mechanism for explaining the mysteries of the universe and our psyche.

    And using science to understand how it works can only extend one’s appreciation of these evolutionary products.

    Science helps us actually understand how things work; religion presents baseless fairy tales as answers. Why would you insist on living in a religious dream world when reality is so much more fascinating and awe inspiring.

    Kat
     
  15. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    2,017
    The truth is though Kat that scientists can never be independant of what they are studying. Their observation is an interaction with the observed in the space-time fabric. Each observer has a different viewpoint. Sure there are similiarities in reports from those observing a given phenomena but since they cannot seperate themselves from what they are observing it can never be stated as factual unless the observer is placed in the equation.
    The fact that the scientist is even given the ability to witness that which he is a part of is a miracle in itself.
    Go ahead, manipulate your environment but remember you plopped out of your mothers vagina just as everyone else did who is walking around today ( no grossness intended). Not one of us has more say than the other so be careful about how much you change where we inhabit without the consent of all.
    My faith requires nothing from another human. Your way requires permission from me and everyone else. I fail to see why I am in the weaker position when I am not seeking my own way. Perhaps you will just make war and kill the objectors?


    peace

    c20
     
  16. Katazia Black Mamba Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    743
    C20,

    You are speaking of the scientists and not science. The scientific method is specifically designed to remove the personal elements and achieve independent objectivity. Any proposals by any individual scientist has to be evaluated and the result reproduced in many laboratories and then peer reviewed by many more scientists with quite likely very different perspectives, only then if the hypothesis survives will it be recognized as probable knowledge.

    This is not a relevant facet of western science. Your perspective here sounds very much like the Eastern philosophies of Vedic Science.

    Why? I feel absolutely no compunction to obtain consent from anyone if my personal survival is in doubt. I only need consent and cooperation from others if there is no other way forward. And if religionists will not cooperate then they either need to be persuaded, ignored, or if they offer actual interference then removed by any means available.

    Yet when so many like you drop into your religious dream world you deprive the entire world of a much needed momentum to solve real problems. Your irresponsible behavior does indeed affect others.

    Why? Progress would be faster if more people were on board but I see no reason to ask permission to safeguard my own survival.

    I’m not sure that ‘weaker’ position is an issue here. If you take no action then you will surely die. I clearly have a much stronger survival instinct and I find inaction unacceptable, whether you agree or not.

    If you indeed get in my way then I would have no hesitation to kill to protect my survival.

    Kat
     
  17. Hathor Banned Banned

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    272
    '

    pardon. i got carried away.
     
  18. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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  19. Hathor Banned Banned

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    272
    any plausible scenarios come to mind?
     
  20. DoctorNO Ultra Electro Agnostic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    719
    HAIL HITLAH! err, I mean "Kat".

    Also reminds me of Stalin & Pol Pot.
     
  21. mustafhakofi I sa'id so Registered Senior Member

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    599
    what utter sillyness, is it not god that puts us in peril in the first place so that we beg for his help this is why he's pleased it seems he likes to see the terror on your face before he helps it's not humility of spirit but terror of death.
     
  22. Lemming3k Insanity Gone Mad Registered Senior Member

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    Admittedly it sounds that way, but it depends on the person, some live that way, i try not to, i feel more inclined to make the best of this life as it may be all i get, i dont believe in heaven so although in a way i have nothing to look forward to i only get one chance to enjoy myself, so i make sure i do, hope that clarifies it.

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    I dont feel guilty yet, i havnt reached the road where i find out if im right or wrong, that comes when i die, then i can feel guilty or maybe not because i will have enjoyed myself, i'd rather risk being wrong and going to hell to enjoy this life incase there isnt anything more, also i am not afraid of death this way, i am not scared incase i die and go to hell or i havnt been good, why waste half my life being scared of something that might not exist?
    That depends on the person, some dont want to live forever, i would if certain people could to, just to see what the futures like, otherwise its all for nothing.
     
  23. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    2,017
    This is a really interesting discussion first off.

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    I would like to try and summarise ...

    Kat's motivation is survival. Above anything else she wants to live. Live in the here and now in the knowledge that if she looks after herself then with modern technology being allowed to go forward unrestrained, she will achieve near enough immortality.

    Kat bears me no ill will. In fact inside she is screaming at me "Wake up my friend! Comon we gotta do it ourselves! No ones gonna rescue you. No God, no nothing. The challenge is to fix it ourselves. Join us. Put your intelligence into helping achieve this end. Be our friends. Your apathy no doubt is already costing lives!"

    It irks her that I seem happier to 'opt out' of choosing 'life' and yet preach 'life' in a way that only really speaks of death. Kat bears no ill will towards God because she doesnt believe in God. Her fight is not one of good or evil but one of survival. She 'would kill me' if I attempted to physically prevent her from achieving an immortal state. It would, in her eyes, be her 'right'. She has the right to survive without hinderance. If people 'actually' disrespect that then they can expect to pay a price. Fair enough!

    I guess the messages to me in your posts are ...

    1. Stop talking God nonsense and start talking 'real' progress before you take some other gullible fool with you to your grave.
    2. Don't just stop talking nonsense, but help us. Together we can achieve immortality. Now is the time!

    Now ...

    You are unquestionably right and I was really talking some stuff 'outta ma butt' so to speak, yeah?. Your way is right and I am wrong so ... surely it doesnt matter what I believe in right?. I mean 'me' the poster

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    (hello) . You could argue that I had influenced others by telling them a fairytale, you could argue maybe even 10000 people had been influenced by me but surely some hocus pocus bible basher isnt gonna stop technology and immortality right? Course not.You are far too clever to let that happen. I mean, the singularity is coming right? It is a 'given'? I mean its not like your talkin 'outta ya butt' so to speak is it? You are gonna live forever right? Your not just making this up about living forever right? You do promise huh? We all gonna live forever Kat? Next 50 years you and I will be laughing about this thread wont we. You will tell me 'I told you so'. And I will laugh and type a :embaressment: smilie. And Hathor will laugh too cos I'll have my tail and night vision and Ill be showin off that tail on the webcam and that yeah? Maybe I'll fly over to yours or teleport. It will be cool and you will have been the true 'Master Of The Thread' - hey you win.

    Its inevitable.

    Is it not?
     

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