Co-Determinism and the Reality of Free Will

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Quantum Quack, Apr 7, 2019.

  1. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    Define "feely", please.
    Is the person a deterministic or non-deterministic system in your theory?
    If the latter then you are, as capracus suggests, exempting the person from an otherwise deterministic universe.
    If the former then, whether you like it or not, the person is just a cog in the watch.
    It might be the most complex cog imaginable, but a cog nonetheless.
     
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  3. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    Insult aside, you'll need to explain things, like what you mean when you say "self-determining".
    You are also describing the idea of co-determinism by using the word in your (and I use the term loosely) explanation.
    A bit like describing "running" as "what people do when they are running".

    Please explain your theory.
    How does it work?
    What is the interaction at the interface between the person and the rest of the deterministic universe?
    How does it differ to simple determinism, given that you seem to have a deterministic system within a deterministic universe?

    If you think your 12 year-old grandson grasps the concepts then maybe you should let him explain things, because so far you seem incapable.
    But more than likeky he understands the concepts because you share the same misunderstandings of the words you use that a 12year-old has.
     
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  5. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    answered. see the op.
     
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  7. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    answered see the Op
     
  8. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    You are taking a surprisingly asinine approach to discussing your theory.
    My questions and issues are not answered in your OP, so please can you reply to them with something more substantial than just referring me back to your inadequate OP?
     
  9. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    ok... for the moment let's discuss your pet subject: In-determinism


    If all possible choices that a human may decide upon are predetermined then there is no choice that can be considered as in-determined.
    Do you agree?
    Can you comprehend the above?

    If you are not happy with it perhaps you could make a statement in your own words about the illusion of in-determinism?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  10. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    If that predetermination stems from the deterministic nature of the universe, then yes.
    Are you able to behave in a rather unwarranted (and certainly not short on ironic) non-facetious manner?
     
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Then there is absolutely nothing a human can do, decide or choose, that would violate that basic principle...yes?

    So there for the possibility of in-determinism is entirely imaginary and an illusion.
     
  12. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Do you believe a nasty leopard can change it's spots Baldeee?
    Your post #21 to this thread speaks volumes of your intentions...
     
  13. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    Correct.
    It would be an illusion only if we thought a closed system was acting in an indeterministic manner, and that system would have the illusion of being indeterministic.
    But otherwise, yes, imaginary.

    So, what does all this have to do with your theory of "co-determination"?
    Are you going to get round to explaining that at some point?
    You mean the post where, a glaring spelling mistake aside, I ask you a series of questions about your theory (that this thread is about), and offer an explanation as to the logical implication of what your possible answers might be (in an effort to get you to think carefully before you post a response)?
    Yes, that post does speak volumes about my intentions: to try to understand your theory and to offer any criticisms I can of it, so as to allow you to strengthen the theory, adapt it, or scrap it entirely as simply wrong.
    If you can answer all the criticisms adequately then great, but first one must understand the theory proposed (which you seem reluctant to allow), and then you have to allow people to try to rip it to pieces (which I'm reasonably sure won't be difficult, but I doubt you have the frame of mind to allow it, or to listen objectively to what they say when they do).
    Do you have an issue with that?
    Or is this all too nasty for you?
     
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    then freely choosing between all those infinite predetermined outcomes is not only possible but actual with out violating determinism.

    end of story...
    next!
     
  15. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    But choosing between all predetermined outcomes is never an option. Predetermined means there is no choice, only the perception of potential choices and the single determined outcome.
     
  16. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    That depends on how you are defining "freely" choosing, as asked of you in post #21 (misspelling aside).
    I have agreed that one can choose / decide, not that such a process is "free".

    So please can you now define what you meen by "freely"?
     
  17. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    If you could kindly quote the parts of the OP that need clarification I would be more than happy to oblige you.
    So far there isn't any indication that you have even read it, let alone understood it enough to be able to offer "objective" critique.

    the key word of course is "objective"....
     
  18. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Have you ever studied Einstein's Light cones.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_cone

    It is actually IMO a great way of understanding the nature of the present moment ( all present moments ) by referring to this diagram, in particular the hypersurface of the present (HSP)

    At any given time there are an infinite number of predetermined choices available on the HSP. all leading to predetermined events as chosen.

    With in the limits of our ability to act we are surrounded by predetermined choices to choose from.

    It is the fact that we are surrounded by those predetermined choices that empowers us with the ability to choose. We can choose any of them and do so with out any conflict with predetermination.

    The very fact that everything is predetermined is what gives us the power to choose freely. ( as an act of co-determination - see the post about Captain Quirky and piece of flash(*) writing titled, The Reluctant Messiah)

    *Flash writing, to me, is writing a short story from scratch within 10 minutes on any topic offered.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  19. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    Sure...
    Please define what you mean by "self deterministic?
    Please define what you mean by "genuine freewill"?
    In a deterministic universe there simply isn't any in-determinism.
    There is no issue to deal with.
    So please can you explain what issue you see there being with the existence of something that doesn't exist in a deterministic universe?
    Or are you referring to the issue of the appearance of in-determinism?
    Or something else?
    Please clarify.
    Please explain what you mean by "a partnership of causation..."?
    How does this differ to a cog in a watch being a "partnership of causation" with the watch?
    Assuming, of course, that we're still talking about a deterministic universe?
    You are simply assuming the existence of "genuine freewill" and saying that since the universe is deterministic that genuine freewill must be possible in such a universe.
    The issue of "co-determinism" seems to be irrelevant.
    The fallacy in your argument is that you are begging the question (genuine freewill exists).
    By this logic you can claim anything and everything to not violate determinism.
    For example:
    A square circle exists.
    The universe is deterministic.
    Therefore a square circle does not violate the determinism of the universe and exists.

    The issue, of course, is that while your logic may be valid (question begging usually is) in this case you have not demonstrated that is is sound - i.e. you have not demonstrated that "genuine freewill" exists.
    Show that genuine freewill exists.
    Define your premises adequately and then show why they should be accepted.
    I read it.
    I understood it as far as it is possible for it to be meaningful.
    And it is flawed for 3 main reasons:
    1. The premise that genuine freewill exists is not demonstrated nor accepted - so the argument is not shown to be sound
    2. The conclusion is simply begging the question
    3. You are theorising a "co-determinism" that logically is no different than any components of a deterministic system: e.g. cog in a watch - so what does the notion of "co-determinism" add to our understanding?
    Further there are other terms requiring definition and explanation, as indicated.


    I await your considered response to these criticisms.
     
  20. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    The right of a people to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter's norms.[1][2] It states that people, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference.[3]

    The concept was first expressed in the 1860s, and spread rapidly thereafter.[4][5] During and after World War I, the principle was encouraged by both Vladimir Lenin and United States President Woodrow Wilson.[4][5] Having announced his Fourteen Points on 8 January 1918, on 11 February 1918 Wilson stated: "National aspirations must be respected; people may now be dominated and governed only by their own consent. 'Self determination' is not a mere phrase; it is an imperative principle of action."[6]

    During World War II, the principle was included in the Atlantic Charter, signed on 14 August 1941, by Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the United States, and Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, who pledged The Eight Principal points of the Charter.[7] It was recognized as an international legal right after it was explicitly listed as a right in the UN Charter.[8]

    The principle does not state how the decision is to be made, nor what the outcome should be, whether it be independence, federation, protection, some form of autonomy or full assimilation.[9] Neither does it state what the delimitation between peoples should be—nor what constitutes a people. There are conflicting definitions and legal criteria for determining which groups may legitimately claim the right to self-determination.[10]

    By extension, the term self-determination has come to mean the free choice of one's own acts without external compulsion.[11]

    Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

    Yeah I can go with the above. We learned all this in primary school. What about you?

    Freewill that isn't indeterminate.
    true, which is what I stated in my OP
    There is no issue to deal with.
    Nope....I referring to the position that determinists such as yourself believe that in-determinism does indeed exist as an illusion and what is more a predetermined illusion at that.

    you refer to two passive systems a cog and a watch. Humans are proactive, dteremining systems that co-determine what has been predetermined by those passive systems.
    I see you still haven't read the OP..... try again...nothing to assume... in plain English, black and white
    then you don't understand what you read....
    No, I wrote:
    as an introduction to a thread that offered discussion on co-determination. The point of that paragraph being that "free will does not violate the determinism of cause and effect".


    Fine, you are entitled to your opinion. This is of course what freedom is about....
    Everything you wrote and didn't write was predetermined prior to your choosing to write. You have co-determined with the available predetermined choices and determined them proactively.
    So called counter factual alternatives are still predetermined yes?
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  21. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Baldeee

    What decision does Captain Quirk finally make do you think?


    Perhaps you could address the questions at the end of that gedanken.... Post#16

    ..just curious
     
  22. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    The fact that everything is predetermined means that the choices are as well, which means that they aren't free to make.
     
  23. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    but when confronted with hundreds of predetermined choices to chose from.....what do you do.... chose one of them that you feel is what you want.....

    when playing chess for example... the only basis of the choice assuming good faith is involved is what you have learned. How to capitalize on the predetermined choices on offer...


    I am in the middle of flight sim that has over 150,000 predetermined stars to visit. I ask my self which star am I predetermined to visit ? no answer comes so I have to decide for myself 1 in 150000.... I could go any where....
    the power of 150,000 predetermined choices empowers my freedom.
     

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