Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by Steve Klinko, Mar 27, 2021.

  1. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    Wait.

    Did you just say physicists aren't open to new ideas?

    To know if shit works?
     
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  3. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    That's Physicalists.
    Would you say you are a Spiritualist, Transcendentalist, or something like that?
     
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  5. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    OK.

    I still understand what you mean.
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    A physicalist can conceptualize that a specific complex neural pattern can result in the emergence of consciousness. The pattern results in acquiring an ability over and above the individual parts.
    What is the difference between a living body and a dead body? Nothing! It is only the change in the pattern of your molecules that has changed.
    Consider that if you are exposed to -40 F for 10 minutes you will freeze to death, but your body will have the exact same number of molecules as when you were alive. The only difference is the pattern that your molecules are arranged in has changed. One pattern is alive, the other pattern is dead.
    The same principle applies to consciousness. What's the difference between a conscious brain and an unconscious brain? Nothing!
    It is the neural patterns that is the difference between an unconscious brain and a conscious brain. Nothing mysterious about that.

    The only thing we need to understand is the specific pattern that yields an emergent consciousness. Just as a specific pattern of large numbers at a specif temperature range of H2O yields a liquid (water) instead of a solid (ice).
     
  8. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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  9. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    If a Physicalist is conceptualizing that specific Complex Neural Patterns are resulting in the Emergence of Consciousness then the Physicalist is making believe he knows something about Consciousness that is unknown to the rest of the Scientific World. You like to do that don't you. Just keep saying Emergence and Consciousness over and over again and maybe someday a Miracle will happen and Consciousness really will Emerge from the Neurons. You have no chain of Logic that takes you from Neural Activity to any Explanation of Consciousness. Everything you have ever said is about the Neural Correlates of Conscious Experience and not about Conscious Experience itself.

    When a Body dies, the Connection to the Conscious Mind is broken. That is all we know and that is all we can say. Your Physicalist Perspective forces you to Believe that when the Body dies, so does Conscious Experience. Since the Inter Mind Perspective proposes that there is a Physical Mind (Brain) in Physical Space and a Conscious Mind in Conscious Space it is not so easy to conclude that Conscious Experience dies with the Brain. Pure Consciousness will probably be a whole new kind of existence. See: https://TheInterMind.com/#_Toc337459238
     
  10. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    That's a lot to digest!

    Please! I may be seen in unflattering moments!
     
  11. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    That's okay. You presumably believe that no Physicalist accepts quarks as a reality, that such an idea wasn't brought about because of science, and that Physicalists who had thought atoms to be the smallest particle of matter somehow weren't allowed to accept that quarks exist? And that QM is anathema to Physicalists? After all, if Physicalists can only ever consider phenomena in terms of what they already understand, then they're clearly not allowed to improve their understanding, right?
    If you speak garbage, unfortuantely that is what people will hear.
    No, it really doesn't. If people don't want to use science and instead want to "think outside the box" and explore alternative explanations, that is up to them. But if science does that, at least in the manner that you are requiring of it, then it is no longer science. If you can come up with useful explanations, that lead to predictive ability, and an explanation of how - rather than just inserting an additional layer without explaining how the layers interact - then feel free to get your papers peer reviewed and published.
    If you're serious about wanting people to understand then break it down for us. Start from the beginning and let's see how far we get before the alarm bells start ringing.
    Let's start with you explaining in simple terms what your theory is, what the experiment aims to do, how it is falsifiable, and then how you go about setting it up.
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    That is a kneejerk response without foundation.
    We KNOW that the human brain has emergent consciousness. That is a hard fact. We know this because we can render the brain unconscious and restore it back to consciousness. We do this by introducing anesthetics to very specific parts of the brain. If we were to introduce anesthetics to a toe, the person would still be conscious, except the toe would be senseless. This proves that the neural network as a whole is instrumental in the distribution of sensory data and brain's controlling the production of chemical responses which in turn elicit emotional experiences.

    The only thing we do not yet know is the exact pattern that is required to yield a result of consciousness.We also KNOW that smaller brains, arranged in specific patterns yield specific sensory abilities . Sensory experience begins with physical response to external kinesis.
    This is an evolved survival mechanism already present in single celled organisms. Specific evolutionary sensory survival mechanisms are observable in may forms and degrees of sensitivity, including cellular memory. Slime mold can solve mazes and has a sense of time via cellular memory. Sensory responses begin very early in living organisms. Evolution for specialization has done the rest. There is no need to imbue any kind of magical sauce into the mix. All organisms have all the necessary parts arranged in specific evolved patterns in response to external data and dynamics. All bacteria can communicate via quorum sensing and can act in a synchronized manner.

    Do you see where this is leading? External stimulus, physical response, cellular memory, time, natural selection, emergent conscious awareness!
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Descartes begs to differ with you. The brain in a vat is quite capable of remaining a conscious mind, albeit experiencing a different reality.
    The connection is only broken because a dead body is unable to provide sustenance for the brain. After all the main function of the brain is homeostasis, an evolved survival mechanism via the subconscious control of bodily functions keeping you alive, with the help of a bunch of symbiotic bacteria.

    p.s. You do know that the human microbiome consists of 10% human and 90% bacterial cells?
    Ironic that the oldest simple organism is keeping the newest complex organism alive!
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  14. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    You don't even know what Emergence really means in terms of Conscious Experience. It is a pure Speculation. It could also be said that we know the Human Brain is Connected to Consciousness. This is also a Speculation. The two Speculations are consistent with the things we know about Conscious Experience.
     
  15. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    The Brain in a Vat is not a Dead Brain in a Vat.
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Enough of the "you don't know" ! I am merely interpreting what I have learned from minds who do know.

    What do you know that is not speculative?
    If you know something, state it and if you can prove something then prove it and quit your annoying attitude of "I know better than you".

    You are not discussing anything at all. You are just acting authoritative, but as far as I can see it is you who has trouble understanding basic physics.
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Right and why is it that it can be made to experience strolling in the park? Data being fed into and interpreted by the brain, right?
     
  18. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    What three Hypotheses were you talking about earlier that are supposed to Explain Conscious Experience?
     
  19. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    If the Brain is not Dead then it is still Connected to the Conscious Mind. What kind of point are you trying to make with this?
     
  20. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

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    I think the list I have made is old Woo Woo

    Which I added

    Please advise what I have missed with which I can manifest these new ideas I should be open to

    Soooo instead of ANSWERING a question with a question

    Please advise what I have missed with which I can manifest these new ideas I should be open to

    Teach me to look outside the box

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  21. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

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    If you think the brain is still active like this when the skull looks like this you really have joined
    The Wherthefuuckarwe Tribe

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  22. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

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    No one has advanced this far

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  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    The brain produces the conscious mind. How many times do you need to be told.

    The Conscious Mind that is YOU is a product of YOUR brain, not of my brain, not of some cosmic brain, not of a rats brain. You are a product of your conscious brain.When your brain dies, YOU die. Yet your body may live as a vegetable. The difference between you and a vegetable is the arrangement of molecular patterns in your brain.

    And the Universe could care less if you live or die. You are no more an expression of the physical world than an ant.
    BTW, brainless ants have been on this earth a hell of a lot longer than you and survived five extinction events. What have you done lately?
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021

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