Covid Vaccination and Recent Spike in cases?

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by KUMAR5, Apr 13, 2021.

  1. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    977
    hello all,
    Greetings!

    I am just checking it.

    Recently there is abnormal excessive spike in Covid 19 infected people.

    There is also similar spike in vaccination program for Covid 19 recently. This is the only major evet
    prefered recently.

    Can there be any relation between these two??

    Logically, I am suspecting modified intact virus present in vaccines get excreted by body's mechanism
    to get rid of them in nasopharyngeal region (also in other parts eg GUT) and this form basis of getting false positive results on RT-PCR testing for Covid 19.

    Sudden spike in antibodies production and existence may cause some mild symptom esp low grade fever leading a person to go for RT-PCR testing in fear. Such antibodies should be bit new and odd so unnatural to body till we are evolved or become habituated so may attract immune response to degrade or get rid of these.

    Developing immunological memory was origional goal of vaccine but is it not bit odd developing antibody based immunity? Whether long existing antibodies like to EBV virus, scarlet fever etc are itself not pathological. Should antibody induced immunity be a short term solution?

    Sorry many questions but all interlinked.

    Best wishes.
     
    Dennis Tate likes this.
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    20,349
    WTF are you talking about?

    The new-infections spike today is far lower than the spike this winter, by at least a factor of 3. There is a vaccine now; there was almost no vaccine back then.

    Only about 25% of the US is fully vaccinated so far - so no, there's not enough vaccination to get Re below 1 yet. That would take ~70% vaccination.
    Nope. There is no "modified intact virus" present in any of the vaccines. Some use adenoviruses; some use mRNA to express one protein that is present on SARS-CoV-2. One protein, not a whole SARS virus.
    Uh - you do realize that that's how vaccines work, right? Your adaptive immune system recognizes the new proteins as foreign, mounts a specific response, and then memory B cells retain the memory of those new proteins. In the process your body "thinks" it is infected because it's activating the same system it uses during a real infection - hence fever, body aches etc.
     
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  5. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

    Messages:
    2,807
    Infection and death rates per day is highly variable between countries. Infection and death rates in some countries are increasing, in other countries decreasing, and are static in the remainder.

    No. The PCR test for SARS-CoV-2 includes multiple genomic loci (targets). A vaccinated person may possibly test positive for the presence of vaccine-related viral RNA encoding the S protein (I don’t know if that is actually the case), but on its own that is not enough to return a positive SARS-CoV-2 results.

    Also, the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines do not contain modified intact virus; they contain nanolipid encapsulated mRNA. The AstraZeneca and J&J vaccines contain modified adenovirus particles.

    The medical advice for anyone receiving any of the vaccines is that there may (or may not) be temporary side effects consisting of 24-48 hours of mild fever and muscle ache, and that there is no need to have a COVID test after the vaccination if these mild side effects occur.

    At this stage, the extent to which a person retains natural immunity after a SARS-CoV-2 infection, and the period of protection conferred by the vaccines, have not been precisely determined. There are some indications that natural immunity to SARS-CoV-2 is short-lived (<12 months). Given this, and the emergence of mutant SARS-CoV-2 mutant strains, we are almost certainly looking at a situation where annual booster vaccinations engineered to the current circulating strains will be required, precisely analogous to the annual influenza vaccination strategy.
     
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  7. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    977
    Thanks and welcome.

    Here in India, spike is much more than previous year. Test bit made quite cheaper here, so people do it immediatly after getting mild fever.

    Here two vaccines are based on weakened live virus and vector based(so similar) virus. So how it can not give impression of
    Covid Virus in RT-PCR testing making it to declare false positive result?

    Yes, mild fever is experienced by a vaccinated person(also by a naturally infected person even after many days, say 15-30 days, when Igg antibodies are developing and present in system which may bring few symptoms like mild fever leading a person to panic and go for Covid testing.
     
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,349
    None of the vaccines I am familiar with - Astra-Zeneca, Pfizer, Moderna or J+J - contain coronavirus. What vaccine are you referring to?
     
  9. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    977
    Thanks and welcome.

    I am also thinking it in line of OP. If false positive report is possible in Vaccinated people, obviously death rate will be low whereas total numbers will be higher.



    Here is the llink on type of vaccines:-

    "Based on a number of these factors, scientists decide which type of vaccine they will make. There are several types of vaccines, including:

    • Inactivated vaccines
    • Live-attenuated vaccines
    • Messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccines
    • Subunit, recombinant, polysaccharide, and conjugate vaccines
    • Toxoid vaccines
    • Viral vector vaccines

    "https://www.vaccines.gov/basics/types "

    I want to be very sure about that if Vaccine content can be capable of bringing false RT-PCR test report or not?

    I also want to check, can contents present in vaccines be excreted vianasopharyngeal region leading it to pollute testing sample.

    It may depend on type of vaccine which may bring positive test report whereas other not.



    Yes, but basis of it can be short term or IgM antibody production. I am concering long term antibogy production effect i.e IgG. In so called Long Covid, patient get long term side effects. Probably those should be due to two abnormalities. One By actual long term injury due to infection other due to long existing antibodies production and existance.

    Body may take these antibodies as strange substance and initiate immunity against these being new to body.



    Yes because it is not yet clear, we can look many possibilities. Vaccine should not be an ultimate solution unless it is capaple to develop long term immunological memory which can also be side effect free. Probably Antibody induced immunity is not side effects free and short term because out immune system will go on trying to get rid of them(since unnatural).
     
  10. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    977
    Covaxin an Indian Vaccine.

    Why Vector based Vaccine CoviShield in India, also can't give impression of virus in RT-PCR test?

    Look at the type of vaccine quote I posted in my last post. Few types also use weakened live virus. Other similars?
     

    Attached Files:

  11. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    977
    Further, I would like to share my personal experience in this
    respect in good intention which made me to check otherwises..

    Recently my wife who was vaccinated on 12th Mach, got low grade fever but no other flu or covid like symptom on 29th March. In anxiety or fear, we got her RT-PCR test done. Unfortunately It came positive. Then one senier doctor just put her on multivitamins and observation at home isolation only. Fortunately,Thereafter, fever was gone after 2-3 days and not come again. No Covid or even flu like symptom even mild. No signal percent weakness or tiredness except ill feeling due to inactivity. Doctor now fave clean chit for infection. I and my son remained close contact with her but not infected(justified by no symptom and test report). Now she is in perfect health. We are not going for test again(also suggested) as it may again come false positive then lot of govt problems start. HOW?
    I have heard and observed many many cased are of vaccinated people now. Obiously there will also be trully non vaccinated infected people. It made me to check vaccination side effect deeply.

    Best wishes.
     
  12. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

    Messages:
    2,807
    As I mentioned above, all the scientific evidence indicates that a COVID vax will not produce a positive PCR test (ref, ref). They may produce a positive antibody-based detection test due to the immune response. A positive PCR test immediately following vaccination likely indicates the person was infected with SARS-CoV-2 just prior to or after being vaccinated.

    Your wife’s symptoms sound like the common transient side effects of the vaccine. I don’t know why she tested PCR-positive. It may have been a false positive. Or maybe she became infected just prior to the vaccination and developed only mild COVID-19, although the apparent absence of infection for you and your children suggests otherwise. Best of luck to you, your wife and family.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
  13. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,489
    New case of vaccine blood clotting admitted to RDH

    https://www.ntnews.com.au/news/nort...n/news-story/0a7e75615a87516eebe03a6604b00d44

    Represents 0.0003% risk and I would take those odds any time

    There was some information about cases where
    • body has produced more defence antibodies against a virus which
    • acts on different regions of the virus
    • it appears the antibodies standing around doing nothing
    • cause mischief where we don't want them to
    Will link to a far more Medical Explnation if I can re-find the article

    Was supposed to get my Vaccination today but found out at the check-in desk I need a Indonesian ID number

    Went to this hospital

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Inul working on getting my number now

    This links to Scientific American articles

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-could-a-covid-vaccine-cause-blood-clots/

    Nice imaginary photo of antibodies and viruses fighting

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Sleep well

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  14. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    977
    Thanks a lot. How RT-PCR can be false positive?
    One more thing. Here repeating RT PCR test after 14 days of successful teatment, is considered as unnecessary or even discouraged. But many still do and in many cases results still come positive. Doctors say it is immaterial and no sense of furthur treatment. Somewhat dead or remainent unviable virus. How it happen?
     
  15. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,901
    None of the vaccines approved by Western agencies - which I think are the ones India also uses - use live or attenuated virus. Astra/Zeneca and Johnson & Johnson use a chimpanzee adenovirus to introduce some genetic material that makes the human body produce the spike protein of the virus - to which the immune system reacts. The BioNTech/Pfizer and Moderna ones use mRNA genetic material, in artificially made fatty particles, to achieve the same thing. So there is no way for anyone to catch the virus due to any of these vaccines. So that's one thing we can rule out.

    What almost certainly happened is your wife caught the virus 2 weeks after being vaccinated, and because her immune response was partly primed by then, she only suffered mild symptoms. However I have not been able to find any definitive information on whether or not a recent vaccination can lead to a false +ve PCR result. I don't know enough about what the PCR test detects. If it reacts to the spike protein then I supposes in principle it might give a +ve to someone whose body is making the spike protein as a result of a recent vaccination. But what Hercules Rockefeller says indicates it is not possible.

    But what is for sure is India is suffering a genuine second wave of infection, partly due to the arrival of the more infectious variants that now dominate in Western countries. It is not an artifact of false +ve test results. People are filling up the hospitals. So they are really ill.
     
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  16. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    977
    Thanks for very good information. Her report duggested as under:
    "SARS COV-2 REAL-TIME RT-PCR ASSAY
    SPECIMEN NASOPHARYNGEAL SWAB & THROAT SWAB
    SARS-COV-2 RNA DETECTED
    METHOD : REAL-TIME RT-PCR
    CT VALUE OF CONFIRMATORY GENE: 19
    METHOD : REAL-TIME RT-PCR
    TARGET(S) S GENE, ORF1AB GENE, N GENE
    INTERPRETATION
    SARS COV-2 REAL-TIME RT-PCR ASSAY-."
    The vaccine she had was Covishield. I think same of Astra Zaneca taken on 12th March. She experienced no symptom/fever before 29th March, when she got fever ist and just for 2 days. Yes low grade mild fever was noted after 2 days of vaccine date which gone in one day. We did not cared it becsuse it was already indicated on vaccination. Sample dwas tsken on 31st march which shown above report. No symptom or even weakness upto today. It surprised me. She is 62 years old and in good health.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
  17. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    977
    This Indian Vaccine is different:-
    Still it is not clear to me how vaccine esp those which contain genetic material of virus or similar to it, can not cause RT-PCR test to show positive report.
     
    exchemist likes this.
  18. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,901
    Aha, that's interesting. There is a comparison of the various vaccines from the BBC here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-55748124
    So yes indeed, Covaxin - and 2 Chinese vaccines - are inactivated SARS-CoV-2 virus. So yes, I suppose one might get a false +ve from these, seeing as they will presumably have all the relevant proteins that the PCR test picks up. But remember that these dead viruses don't replicate inside the body, so the only material the test would be capable of detecting would be the material injected, which is a very small amount.

    I wonder what Hercules thinks, as he seems to be the best informed of us on the forum.

    But your wife had the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine, which is a modified chimpanzee cold virus, so quite different.
     
  19. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    977
    Is it very sure injected material in vaccine is very small and not capable of giving positive result?.
    Quantity in swab sample looks even look quite smaller than quantity in vaccine.

    Furthur, Apart from Covaxin, how Covishield (Astra) vector based vaccine, though not same but is similar, should not be able to bring positive PCR result? Esp when it is also similarly able to produce same antibodies/immunity alike inactivated virus based vaccines.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
  20. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,901
    You need to re-read post 3, which explains this. I quote the most relevant passage:
    The PCR test for SARS-CoV-2 includes multiple genomic loci (targets). A vaccinated person may possibly test positive for the presence of vaccine-related viral RNA encoding the S protein (I don’t know if that is actually the case), but on its own that is not enough to return a positive SARS-CoV-2 results.

    In simple language:
    The AstraZeneca vaccine works by making the body manufacture only the spike protein of the virus (which then stimulates an immune response). Whereas the PCR test depends on detecting several different proteins. If only one, say the spike protein, is detected, you get a -ve result.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,349
    Contamination during the assay process would be one simple way. Some contamination from a previous sample returned a false positive. RT-PCR is extremely sensitive, so even minor contamination could result in a false positive.
     
  22. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

    Messages:
    2,807
    Oh, I’m sorry, I missed this bit with the dates!

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    That explains everything.

    Your wife showed symptoms 17 days after vaccination. In that case, the symptoms had nothing to do with the vax; it sounds like your wife became infected with SARS-CoV-2 and developed a mild and quick case of COVID-19, as exchemist said in post #12……
    It should be noted that the various vaccines available were approved on the basis of their ability to prevent serious COVID-19 symptoms, NOT their ability to prevent SARS-CoV-2 infection. Having said that, growing indications are that they are also very good at preventing infection in the first place (potentially up to 80-90% protection), which is a really good outcome. So, your wife was unlucky, but the vax may well have prevented her from developing a worse case of COVID-19. Well played Kumar!

    I notice that your wife’s PCR results had a Ct value of 19. That is a low Ct value for the RT-PCR test and indicates a very high viral load in her sample, indicative of the first few days after infection. So, it looks like she contracted the virus on, or about, the 27th and had a quick incubation period. Incubation periods before showing symptoms (if any) is usually longer than that (up to 2 weeks), but can be as quick as 1 or 2 days.
     
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  23. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    977
    Thanks. Then in concludion, Astra Zeneca vaccine can not make PCR test to return as positive. Then it will also justify, mu wife got fresh infection but vaccine saved her to from progressing to severe case. She had first dose of vaccine sbd 2nd is due now.
     

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