Discussion in 'Religion' started by Magical Realist, May 31, 2014.
GOD bless GOD
(made me smile-deep down inside)
Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.
Does posting a series of unsourced and in some cases probably inaccurate quotes constitute "valid and accurate" criticism of groups as broad and diverse as Christianity in general, let alone religion in its entirety?
That's just the point. Some of them obviously are savage criminals. I could post no end of examples.
There was the African-American guy who broke into a home not far from where I live during the day, apparently believing it was unoccupied. Inside, he encountered the home's owner, an elderly white man in his 80's. The intruder proceeded to beat the man so savagely that the man died a few weeks later. The old guy was found lying on the floor in a pubble of blood by his son, who checked in on his dad periodically. The intruder had ransacked the house and was arrested some time later driving the old man's luxury car. Last I heard, attorneys for the accused were trying to mount an insanity defense.
How are examples like that any different than the kind of examples that MR posted of ostensible Christians supposedly saying stupid and bizarre things?
In both cases one of the larger logical defects seems to be bad-generalization, a fault that we see repeated all the time on Sciforums. (Remember Tiassa flaming atheists in general?)
Some blacks are the worst kind of criminals imaginable, but it would be false to suggest that everyone whose ancestors came from Africa is a savage criminal. Some Christians are the worst sort of bigots imaginable, but it would be false to suggest that all Christians are bigots. Some religious people are Christians, but religion doesn't consist only of Christians. Some atheists do seem to be motivated by little more than their own ignorance and hatred, but obviously not all atheists fit that perjorative characterization. On and on...
Some people like to divide the world into conflicting 'sides', they enjoy feeling solidarity with their perceived mates and strenuously battle those that they think of as 'the others'. We see that dynamic illustrated abundantly in partisan politics, which at times can resemble LA street gangs flashing their red and blue colors. It's also extremely common with atheists and theists here on the internet. (This thread kind of looks like gang-graffiti, the atheist side calling out for solidarity and marking its turf.)
I don't line up with sides and I don't automatically applaud anything that one side says, so long as it's directed at the other side. I judge arguments on their merits and I'm perfectly willing to criticise anyone, especially if they seem to me to be acting like bullies. That's probably why I come across as an 'apologist' to ideologues in both camps. They perceive me as being disloyal and untrustworthy, as someone who is often willing to argue on behalf of their opponents.
(I'm rather proud of that.)
To any intelligent person. It certainly wouldn't fly in a university critical-thinking, philosophy or religious studies classroom.
Probably not. But you can hold them up to the light. Rather then trying to ignore it and pretending that dark side doesn't exist.
Therein lies the quandary:
There is a prevalent philosophy within developmental psychology which roughly states that: People will tend to rise or lower themselves to their perceptions of your expectations of them.
If accurate, would that not preclude the "frontal assault" on bigotry?
Bigotry can be fought and won by educating people and showing them the errors of their ways. It takes time to change, it doesn't happen overnight! You have to pull them out of the old days and teach them the new ways of the world, that the old ways are obsolete and unacceptable if we ever hope to have a society that operates like a well oiled machine with a Pontiac 3.75" crank in it, just purring down the road. No education means instead of a Pontiac 400, it's like an old Chevy 350 that burns oil and has a rod knock. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
You're the one calling me a bigot. I assume that was based on more than me just posting the quotes of Christians. A vague familiarity with what I said about religion in the ensuing posts being a soul killing mentally warping emotionally manipulative system that condemns people for their lifestyles? About religion condemning gay people to hell simply for who they love? That's called speaking out against religion. As for the Catholic Catechism, I've read parts of it. The parts about homosexuals being gravely disordered. The parts about masturbation being a sin. The part about witches and how wicked they are. The part about sex without reproduction being a sin. The part about how after a few magic words from the priest a cracker turns into the actual flesh of Jesus Christ. I had to eventually stop because I was laughing so hard.
There's book learning. Which has its place. And then there's experiential learning. I know you were raised in a agnostic family and have never had any experience with the effect religion has on your life. Your observations on the matter are always cool detached and equinanamous. My own perspective on the Christian religion otoh embodies years of trying to make it the most important thing in my life. Of actually believing, as much as I now believe in evolution and quantum theory, in the doctrines and values taught by the Bible and my church. I didn't have the luxury of standing on the outside of religion and learning all about it from books. Well. actually I DID later on, reading C.S. Lewis and Kierkegaard and Thomas Merton etc. But what I knew of Christianity already I had learned about it firsthand, as part of who I was and strove to be. And I found that it was a delusional state that imprisoned me in a fantasy world of fear and guilt and flowery sentiments that were all unreal and out of touch with the real world. I feel like I have the right to talk about what I learned from being religious, and from then turning non-religious, perhaps even more than you do about what you learned from NOT being religious. Religion does not get a free pass from criticism in our society, even though it did in ages past.
You think I called you a bigot, what I did was suggest you do not act like one. Condemn the sin and not the sinner. That's another one of those Christian principles you've seemed to set yourself against. Yazata in post #42 gets what I am saying:
Have you been reading and trying to learn from the responses your OP has generated, or is enough for you to just go on feeling persecuted and thinking you have a right to lash out at whomever you please?
You wrote above: [that religion is]
Do you really think that is all there is to it? Did the early pre-christian Greek/Hebrew fathers (or whoever???) have a summit and say, 'Hey, what we need a soul killing mentally warping emotionally manipulative system that condemns people for their lifestyles?
Surely not. If anything quite the opposite. Nietzsche called Christianity a slave's' religion that was designed to keep people in line, and while he may have been closer to the mark than what you have said, well, he was also a lunatic who inspired the Nazis to do what they did. So the less said about him the better.
I have said that I'm a lay 'cafeteria' catholic who decides for myself what is and what is not acceptable in my church for myself. The billion others may not precisely agree with me, but I know everyone of them from Pope Frank the First on down has their own individual view of what the Catholic (and for us that means 'Christian') church is and ought to be. I personally am not concerned about homosexuality (puzzled, yes, but not critical of it). I get what The Church is on about concerning masturbation, but do not find it realistic. As for witches! Are you seriously defending the rights of witches? If you are, now you really do sound like our ignorant Fundamentalist friends who seem to think Harry Potter is real. Witchcraft is a good example of what I mean about this being the twenty-first century and many of the 'concerns' of Leviticus simply don't apply. IMHO, whether people prefer to sleep with a member of their own sex would be another. So please stop lumping reasonable people who happen to be Christians with the ignorant self-righteous know-nothings who would hate homosexuals even if their holy book said it was super fine. Or if they approved of homosexuality they'd be bashing some one else. it's just how they are. Let's not sink to their level!
You were ill advised to begin a hate thread, and all you've done is defend yourself based on personal hurt. I have offered an apology for that though it is nothing I have done. Maybe we should just let this discussion die the death now.
"What I have against religion is that they start you when you are so defenseless. I mean, I was three when they started pumping this bullshit into my head. I believed in Santa Claus and the Fairy Godmother, of course I believed in a virgin birth, and a guy lived in a whale, and a woman came from a rib. But then something happened that made me doubt all of it: I graduated sixth grade!"--Bill Maher
And like so many Christian principles it's totally bogus. There's no such thing as condemning the sin without condemning the sinner. You attack someone for having sex outside of marriage, you attack them for being a fornicator. You attack a gay person for "gay behavior". You attack them as homosexuals. You attack someone for worshipping idols. You attack them for being idolaters. Your religion has had centuries to hone and sharpen the fine art of condemning and guilt-tripping. And it continues to brainwash kids to this day with a cartoonish mythology of sinfulness and damnation that leaves its scars even long after those kids are grown and thoroughly secularized.
Hey..it's your religion that concocted the concept of the evil witch. Your own catechism talks about them and how wicked they are. So it is your own religion that is the source of such ignorance, indeed historically acting upon such a belief in it's killing and persecution of hundreds of thousands of women AND men for being witches.
Except such beliefs are NOT limited to Leviticus. Paul talks about sorcerers and homosexuals not inheriting the kingdom of heaven. That's from your own inspired Godbook. Remember? The one that reveals God's truth and will to the human race? The book that both Protestants AND Catholics base their whole faith on.
I don't take to threats, particularly from Christians trying to censor my freespeech about what a big steaming load of bullshit their religion really is.
I don't know or care what you were apologizing for. Your religion still remains the source of hatred and homophobia it has always been. That's what I'm attacking, however much that may upset you or hurt your feelings.
That's what members of The WBC say; however, their website is still called "God Hates Fags".
Feel the love!
When people write things that strike me as stupid, I'll typically try not to denounce the writer by calling him/her stupid. Instead, I'll try (not always successfully) to dispassionately criticize what they wrote.
There are at least two advantages in doing things that way. First, it leaves open the possibility that the other person can do a lot better if they try. Second, it's less apt to derail the conversation into a fruitless ego-battle.
I don't think that's dissimilar to what Arne was talking about and it needn't have anything to do with Christianity.
Has Arne done any of that? Or has the reference of the word 'you' kind of drifted away from Arne, towards targeting your own personal vision of the horror that Christianity is?
Most of the Christians that I know don't experience Christianity as condemnation and guilt-tripping. They think of sin as being more or less synonymous with the ideas of right and wrong. The idea that everyone is a sinner isn't really much different than the idea that nobody, no matter how good they think they are, ever totally avoids doing anything wrong. And having said that, isn't one of the fundamental ideas of Christianity the idea of divine forgiveness?
I think that the idea of witchcraft was around long before Christianity. (My guess is that it dates back to prehistoric times.) Today, it's probably most prevalent in sub-Saharan Africa, where it has traditional non-Christian origins. Christian churches are often at the forefront of combating the abuses associated with it.
I don't use the adjective stupid at all. Cuz if you say a statement is stupid or an action is stupid, you are also calling that person stupid. Same with any such adjectives. When you denote the behavior as being a certain way, it is automatically applying to that person too.
No..I'm not saying Arne did that. I'm using "you" in the same sense that one would say, "IF you." It's a common colloquial shorthand.
I said the concept of witches as being evil comes straight out of the JudeoChristian tradition. King Saul himself is reknown in the Bible as having banished all the witches. It's an ancient and grand old tradition, like barbequing homosexuals with burning sticks called "fags."
You must be looking into a mirror. The only hate I see comes from you. If this thread dies or does not get back on topic, I will start a new 1. You cannot shut people up just because you cannot handle the truth.
Anyone remember this guy?
Rick Santorum quotes:
1. “In every society, the definition of marriage has not ever to my knowledge included homosexuality. That’s not to pick on homosexuality. It’s not, you know, man on child, man on dog, or whatever the case may be.” —Rick Santorum , speaking to a reporter in 2003, who said, "I’m sorry, I didn’t think I was going to talk about ‘man on dog’ with a United States senator, it’s sort of freaking me out.”
2. "One of the things I will talk about, that no president has talked about before, is I think the dangers of contraception in this country.... Many of the Christian faith have said, well, that's okay, contraception is okay. It's not okay. It's a license to do things in a sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be." —Rick Santorum, interview with CaffeinatedThoughts.com (October 2011)
3. "I don't want to make black people's lives better by giving them somebody else's money; I want to give them the opportunity to go out and earn the money." —Rick Santorum, campaigning for president in Iowa (January 2012)
4. "President Obama wants everybody in America to go to college. What a snob ... Oh, I understand why he wants you to go to college. He wants to remake you in his image.” –Rick Santorum, speaking to a Tea Party group in Michigan (February 2012)
5. “Earlier in my political career, I had the opportunity to read the speech, and I almost threw up.” –Rick Santorum, on JFK's 1960 speech about the importance of separation of church and state (October 2011)
6. "The question is — and this is what Barack Obama didn't want to answer — is that human life a person under the Constitution? And Barack Obama says no. Well if that person — human life is not a person, then — I find it almost remarkable for a black man to say, 'We're going to decide who are people and who are not people.'" —Rick Santorum, CNS News interview (January 2011)
7. “I think the Democrats are actually worried he (Obama) may go to Indonesia and bow to more Muslims.” –Rick Santorum, Fox News interview (May 2010)
8. “[Gay marriage] is an issue just like 9-11... We didn't decide we wanted to fight the war on terrorism because we wanted to. It was brought to us. And if not now, when? When the supreme courts in all the other states have succumbed to the Massachusetts version of the law?” –Rick Santorum, interview with the Allentown Morning Call (February 2004)
9. "Is anyone saying same-sex couples can't love each other? I love my children. I love my friends, my brother. Heck, I even love my mother-in-law. Should we call these relationships marriage, too?" –Rick Santorum, in a Philadelphia Inquirer column (May 2008)
10. "The idea that the Crusades and the fight of Christendom against Islam is somehow an aggression on our part is absolutely anti-historical. And that is what the perception is by the American Left who hates Christendom. ... What I'm talking about is onward American soldiers. What we're talking about are core American values." –Rick Santorum, campaigning for president in South Carolina (February 2011)
remember this old phrase,
" practice what you preach "
i wonder why it was originated.
IMO, religion is nothing more than idolization,
it's all the same basic thought, just the idolization element is involved.
Oh well, just goes to show there's nowt so queer as folk.
Most of the Christians that I know & have communicated with & have heard of do experience it that way & that is the way they talk to & treat others. The main aspect of which is you were born evil & deserve to rot & burn in hell & suffer for eternity & that is exactly what will happen to you if you do not believe what I believe & do what I believe you must do. That should be considered a hate crime. That is THE fundamental issue of christianity. IF there is an afterlife & the god of the HolyBabble (Despite the fact that it is so contradictory that it cannot be true) yet this god decides not to punish people in hell after all, many christians will be very disappointed. Divine forgiveness, the belief that an omnipotent god created humans then got pissed off because the humans acted like the humans it created them to be & decided humans need to be forgiven but it cannot be done without the biggest bunch of bullshit convolution ever imagined. This portrays god as the most illogical stupid immature brat there could possibly be.
Separate names with a comma.