Death and funerals

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Cris, Apr 22, 2001.

  1. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    Death and funerals and trends,

    My father died on the 3rd April, aged 92. This has naturally made me think more deeply about death and its implications. I missed his death by a few hours; my 12-hour flight from the US to the UK was just too long. I’m still in the UK as I post this, having now dealt with the estate and funeral and other arrangements.

    I have discovered that the UK is far more secular than I had realized. I organized a non-religious funeral and I gave a speech describing and celebrating the life of my father. It was noteworthy that no religious terminology was used and no comments were made during or after the funeral that religion played no part. It was accepted that death was the end and that only memories of my father were all that remained.

    I think the funeral, being non-religious, was more intense and emotional since it focused entirely on my father rather than include any distractions in the form of hymns, prayers, or irrelevant sermons concerning gods and an afterlife.

    My 85-year-old mother had assumed that a minister or vicar would conduct the funeral, but she expressed no concern when I showed a significant distaste for such an approach. The undertakers added that non-religious funerals were on the increase and that they now had many non-religious officiators willing to conduct the services. They also remarked that although most of their services were Christian in nature they felt that that was mainly due to tradition rather than because of any real religious beliefs.

    While this is a sad and distressing time for my mother and myself I am, nevertheless, pleased to see that religions are increasingly being seen as irrelevant, and especially where death is concerned since that is the primary reason why religions exist. The willingness, eagerness and support of the officials involved to help me with non-religious arrangements were most refreshing and enlightening. They seemed to recognize and respect my honesty rather than see the typical hypocrisy of a meaningless Christian ceremony.

    The only remaining task is to deal with the ashes. A guided tour of the crematorium grounds showing all the various ways to bury, hide, secrete, scatter, or otherwise place the ashes, was surprisingly revealing. I have no need of such places since I feel I can evoke my memories of him at anytime and any place, but my mother is more of a traditionalist.

    The other observation was the extensive use of cut flowers. Many had flowers sent and never saw the result of their purchases. But these floral tributes were only viewed by those who attended the funeral and then for only a few minutes. This seemed like a waste to me. There is also the view that to cut flowers is to kill them. It does not seem quite right to send decaying and dying flowers to a funeral. I haven’t decided how to reach a conclusion on this aspect yet.

    Just thought I’d share my observations and explain my absence from the forums recently. My father had been very ill these past few months, we knew his end was near, and I have found it hard to concentrate on appropriate posts.

    If you have any appropriate death or funeral experiences or observations then please share them here.

    Cris
     
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  3. mirror Registered Senior Member

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    Cris,

    I am so sorry for your loss.

    You have shared with us some of the differences which you and your mother had concerning the funeral and handling of his remains and I was wondering if your father had expressed any wishes concerning such matters when he was alive.

    One of the reasons I ask is that a terminally ill member of the family is a Christian and her spouse is an Atheist. When she was healthy, she attended church once a week while he sat home with a sour face. Once she became very ill, she was dependent upon her husband to drive her to church. Although she asked him many times, since he does not believe, he refused to drive her anywhere near the area of the church. Most recently, she has expressed some wishes concerning her funeral and burial but her husband refuses to go along with her wishes because he does not agree with her beliefs. Even though they have been married for a few decades, she has felt the need to resort to putting her last wishes concerning her funeral and burial in writing and has given power of attorney over her final arrangements, including the means to finance her funeral and burial, to someone she feels she can trust.

    Needless to say, it is sad to see such conflict between them during such a difficult time.
     
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  5. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Mirror,

    I do find it very curious that a couple would stay together with such opposing views. And I’m sure they could not do so if the religious conflict was a dominant factor in their everyday lives. But I have met couples who support separate religious views; I don’t think I could do that now, but such relationships do work as I think such people do not see religions as particularly important – that I think is healthy.

    My father did not express any views concerning his ashes although he stated in his will a desire for cremation. He was atheist and stated many times in his life that he thought religion was a lot of nonsense. My mother has no real religious beliefs, she just seems to want somewhere to go to remember, and tradition seems to indicate that a headstone or plaque somewhere is the most appropriate. They were married for 62 years.

    I did find it surprising that one relation was very upset at the thought of a cremation, and stated that a burial was the only correct method. I have not had a chance to pursue her reasoning yet.

    But I am curious to understand why people are concerned with body disposal. In all religions that hold a dualistic belief it is the spirit that is the real person who after death has no further need of a physical body. In this case disposal of the body should be unimportant.

    I guess it is difficult for many to accept that the body that they had come to see as representative of the person they knew could become just a decaying mass of lifeless bio-chemical matter. There is that significant reluctance to let go. It becomes much clearer now to see how religions would thrive on such emotions and attempt to calm those that remain by creating the ideas of afterlife scenarios.

    I have also noted how many do not use the word ‘death’ or ‘died’ etc. The term ‘passed away’ was quite common. Again that reluctance to acknowledge the truth.

    Thanks for your post.

    Cris
     
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Ashes

    When a man dies, a library burns. Something like that. It's drawn from Robert McCammon, and I've nothing better to offer. I am never sure what sentiments are appropriate at such a time because death is an impersonal fact for me.

    In terms of death itself I feel compelled to mention that I fear my cat's death more than I fear my own. Strange that my greed for familiarity should outweigh my greed for vitality.

    I have a strong distaste for funerary rites of any modern sort, for reasons best left alone, as embittered ranting serves none at present. However,
    brings to mind a quieter version of that ranting. I am firmly of the opinion that all the pomp and circumstance of laying a body to rest is for the benefit of the living psyche. Though it is hardly a testament to the human conscience, I am persuaded to say that the mourning we witness of other people is designed to be witnessed. Perhaps all people mourn in two phases, but there seems to be some sense of disconnection between public conduct of mourning and private conduct of mourning. My distaste for funerals has little to do with my regard for the dead; it comes strictly from my regard for the living, and the way they behave in the presence of death. It is sufficient, I hope, to say that my father has declared that upon his death he wishes to be dumped off his boat after his death. Cremation should only take place if he happens to die in a locality that requires the cremation of the corpse before dumping it into the sea. Specifically, his remains are to be sailed out to no place in particular--bearing in mind reasonable considerations of current and so forth--and tossed overboard without ceremony. He has specifically expressed that the proper funeral will take place between people over a beer and a cigarette, and there's no reason to make them all do it at the same time. I should note that my father and I agree quite rarely, though I have no reason whatsoever to disagree with him on these points. It is also fair to note that I'm actually happy that Timothy Leary ended up a shooting star. Like I said, the ritual's for the living.

    This I say with a straight face: How long before the Fox Network hits us with stunt funerals?

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  8. mirror Registered Senior Member

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    65
    Cris,

    You wrote:

    "I do find it very curious that a couple would stay together with such opposing views."

    What you might find even more curious is that there are three adult children and one is an Atheist, one is a Christian and one is of the Jewish faith.
     
  9. pragmathen 0001 1111 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    452
    Just a thought

    Cris,

    For what it's worth, my condolences. Mainly because I thought it was very noteworthy that you had such a connected relationship with your father. I think that's very cool.

    My grandfather died nearly two years ago and he was the closest male figure in my life. I was the only one that didn't attend the funeral, mainly because it was entirely Christian-conducted. I just didn't see the need to travel to a certain place to say my goodbyes. I could easily say them from my current location as well as recall experiences with him at leisure.

    I also liked your point about the flowers. A good friend's grandfather also died in the past year and she wanted to take flowers to his grave on the anniversary of his death, to which I couldn't understand the logic behind the act. But, after reading tiassa's post, it makes sense that some of these funerary rites are for the living rather than the dead.

    Just wanted to add to this one. Thanks.

    peace,

    prag
     
  10. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    Tiassa,

    I like the library analogy. But it really doesn’t matter if the library burns if everyone has read and can remember the contents and can thus pass on the knowledge. So while I find ceremonies obnoxious I do think that an appropriate funeral provides the opportunity to ‘review’ the life of the deceased. My dad had led a somewhat unusual life and I knew many did not understand him. The funeral was my chance to set the record straight and explain to the living what they had missed and in so doing perhaps make them wiser.

    So unless one believes in an afterlife then I agree that funerals are most definitely for the living. I can further illustrate my distaste for ceremonies: In 1996 my sister, aged 55, died of cancer. I wasn’t involved in the funeral arrangements at that time and had forgotten dress code; I wore black jeans, black open neck shirt and sneakers – this is who I am – I never wear suits and ties – I simply didn’t own any, and I wasn’t sufficiently well organized to consider renting. But from my perspective I simply wasn’t interested in playing a role or doing what others expected – my sister knew what I was like and to do otherwise would have been hypocritical – I’m sure she would have laughed. I am by nature a rebel, or perhaps more accurately a freethinker, and in this case I simply forgot to be a sheep for the day. But for my dad I didn’t want any distractions from my spoken message so this time I conformed, well almost, I was simply the smartest dressed present.

    I know that I have influenced the lives of many others, many have told me as much, and I would consider it selfish if I were to deny them an opportunity to formally recognize and remember those effects at an appropriate funeral style occasion. So if I ever have the misfortune to die, then, apart from not being able to care what happens to my corpse, I would not place any restrictions on how the living might choose to remember me.

    prag… Thanks for your comments.

    My mother finally decided today what to do with the ashes, and this was without my influence: Her reasoning - the ashes have no value or meaning so they can be simply disposed of at the discretion of the crematorium. Neither will there be a headstone or plaque at some distant place – he was a keen gardener so she has decided to plant a rose bush at home, partly as a memorial symbol, but it is also something of living beauty (real value) that she can enjoy whenever she wishes knowing that he would have enjoyed that as well. I’m proud of my mum.

    Cris
     
  11. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

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    Cris:
    Sorry to hear of your loss.


    It's the smell.
     
  12. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    tony1,

    Did you misunderstand the point on purpose or do you delight in being offensive and insensitive?
     
  13. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry again, Cris.

    I really am sorry that you experienced the loss of your father.
    Such things are painful.

    The second answer was not directed to you in any way.
     
  14. Temajin Registered Member

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    2
    The body dies but the spirit lives on. So living on they will know what happens after death. We will get our turn eventually. What if we were wrong in our beliefs? What if there IS a God and the bible was true? I think that I will choose to believe that I must live my life to the fullest, loving my neighbors, being good to those that hate me.
    Sure, do not stand by my grave and weep. I am not there I do not sleep...I think funerals, flowers, priests, sympathy cards, prayers etc. do help families who have lost loved ones. When my father died, 800 plus people came to his funeral. He was a great man. I felt proud that day. How everyone wanted to help our family during our time of sorrow. Our family grew closer.
    Some people prefer it a whole different way, no service, no flowers, no priests, no crying. To each their own. However, I can't help but feel those people are sad.
     

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