Debate: Alien Abductions are Happening

Discussion in 'Formal debates' started by darksidZz, Dec 14, 2007.

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  1. darksidZz Valued Senior Member

    The main arguments I have concerning why abductions are happening are many I therefore will take the best of those and hopefully you will come to see my point of view. The most important thing to do is take an analytical approach and not just a purely static one. By this I mean look at the current reports by individuals and the sightings of UFO's themselves as one thing. It's also valuable to remember this phenomena is not merely one of science, it is in-fact beyond what science can deal with to the extent the beings themselves are scientific. Any science can be made to fool or even totally cloak another.

    During history abduction phenomena's themselves have been reported, we have instances in the past of fairies, elves, goblins, all taking children and causing people to enter into a euphoric like condition. What we don't have is any evidence these events are real or can even be explained rationally. The trouble with that is it leads to doubt immediately instead of scientific interest. In order to understand the abduction scenarios and why they occur it is important to place ourselves in the position of these people and the aliens themselves. Now how can someone do that you ask? Through imagination and a little scientific theory.

    Piecing together the abductions is no simple task, hypnosis is often employed as a means to draw out lost memories. What is important here to understand? What can be of value? Let's examine a few assumptions I've made based on the available data, both of researchers and of abductees.

    According to David Jacobs, one of the better abduction researchers, the phenomena we are seeing had to begin somewhere around the 1890's he concludes this because of scientific analysis. He states that because the phenomena itself spreads through a family by its nature it continues into the children's children, etc. Knowing this he surmises the actual date of these events starting; all he did was work backwards through the family lineage looking for unusual reports of dreams, etc.

    The above example is to show you how science can play a role in examining this phenomena, however it also shows there is something to examine! If there'd been no data retrieved by hypnosis, no eye witness reports of UFO's, well then we couldn't have come to the actual figure of 1890 for the abductions to begin. This clearly demonstrates the phenomena itself is real, and while it doesn't fully show aliens as the cause it can show that it exists.

    I've recently spoken to a geneticist about the possibility of aliens actually existing, he explained if they did their physiology would have to be very different because chromosomes, etc. wouldn't have evolved the same way as on Earth. He of course can't tell me what they'd look like but he can explain life in an entirely different ecosystem (alien) would be unable to survive outside that ecosystem unless some technology came into play. What's that mean to us? It's obvious, we see technology in the abduction phenomena, it may be unusual and bizarre but it's there. The facts are we have a profile for UFO's, we have witness reports, and we know people have actually seen aliens & UFO's together. The link is made by us and not random.

    What about the fact these abductees claim to see beings very similar to us? Normally termed Greys these beings seem human-like in frame, almost child-like. David Jacobs again has come up with an answer based on his analysis and what we find is it makes perfect sense given the framework of the abductions. According to him the Greys are actually the first attempt to blend our species with the actual aliens an insect-like species. While at first we question the abduction s and all details surrounding them we must also ask ourselves do all these minor details working together form a picture of the whole? Let me use an example here:

    You come home to find your house robbed, there are things broken everywhere and drawers are open. Based on your experience this would clearly have been an intruder. You can however make certain assumptions which themselves are scientifically sound, for example...

    1. The intruder was human
    2. There may have been more than 1 intruder
    3. Your expensive items may be missing
    4. You should check everything thoroughly
    5. They could still be there
    6. Call the police and report the incident

    Just as the above are normal reactions to this situation we also can say they're assumptions based on experience but no less scientifically true. It just so happens this type of thinking can give us insights into what abductees really report is happening. Piecing together conclusions based on actual experience is not wrong, we do it everyday. If you employee this type of thinking you CAN see abductions are happening and realize they aren't just fantasy.

    You might mention abductees don't have evidence, the facts are they do. Evidence is something that can take many forms, this should include eye witness's, camera's, etc. While we don't have pictures of aliens we have the people who've seen them or are you saying someone that sees a robber commit a crime is invalid? They're precisely the same thing, it's not your job to determine why or who but just look at the facts presented to you. You make assumptions aliens cannot be real because you haven't seen one, the truth is others claim they have.

    I'd like to mention before James R demolishes me that while the abductions themselves are mostly recalled by hypnosis many are not, after the initial recall one should expect there to be less confusion around the events. It's important to note that the behavior we see in the reports of abductions makes sense, repressing someone's memories that you hurt them is logical and no one can argue that.
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  3. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    I'll start with an apology. This post is about 12 hours later than the agreed deadline for posts in this debate. I think that the difference in our time zones probably makes the 24 hour limit quite hard to meet, although I had planned to post last night (my time). It is within your rights, darksidZz, to ask that this debate be closed and my post deleted, since I have broken the rules. Please let me know if you want that done. If, on the other hand, you wish to continue, I suggest we extend the time limit for subsequent posts to 2 days, or whatever else you suggest (as long as it is not totally unlimited).

    Anyway, I will now move to the topic. This introductory post will not be as complete as I would have liked, and I'll save references for my follow-up posts.

    Alien abductions are NOT happening

    My position is that human beings are not currently being abducted by beings from another planet. I could also argue that no alien beings have ever visited Earth, which would obviously make alien abduction impossible, but there is no need to make that argument for the purposes of this debate. I therefore restrict myself to discussing evidence direction for or against alien abductions.

    In my opinion, there are only a few of categories of alien abduction cases:

    1. Deliberate frauds in which the people involved make up the whole thing.
    2. Incidences of "sleep paralysis" in which people essentially dream of an abduction. They believe something really happened; it did, but it wasn't an alien abduction.
    3. Incidences where false memories have been implanted through means such as hypnosis, in which people come to believe they have been abducted by aliens even though no such event ever happened.

    I will present evidence relating to each of these three areas in my subsequent posts.

    In situations like this, it is always worth applying some common sense. We need to ask: if alien abductions were actually happening, what else would we expect to be true? Here is a possible list:

    1. Abductees would "come back" with information about alien technologies and/or the aliens themselves that would be radically different from what is already known by human beings.
    2. At least in some cases, there would be reliable witnesses to the abduction itself. We would expect reliable people to see spaceships land, aliens break into a house and abduct the victim, etc.
    3. At least in some cases, there would be physical evidence of the aliens' activity. This is especially true in cases where the abductees claimed that some kind of surgery was performed on them, or where they claim to have been "implanted" with an alien probe.
    4. Radar networks and other detection mechanisms would have detected alien spaceships.
    5. Alien abduction reports would be correlated with UFO sightings by independent witnesses.

    Also, we might consider the motivations of the aliens themselves. If they abduct humans to conduct research on them, and alien abduction is really as widespread as supporters claim, then why is it necessary for aliens to keep abducting people? How long would it take an advanced civilisation (as aliens must surely be in order to reach Earth in the first place) to learn everything useful that there is to know about human anatomy, biology and reproduction? Why do they need to keep abducting people? Some people claim to have been abducted many times. Why would that be necessary?

    Of course, there are wilder claims, such as that aliens want to create an alien-human hybrid, and so conduct sexual experiments on people. One problem with this is that not only women are abducted, apparently. Another problem is the total lack of evidence of any such hybrids existing, or even of "unexplainable" pregnancies and births followed by "missing" children.

    If not alien abduction, then what?

    I will elaborate in my follow-up posts on possible explanations of the alien abduction stories. My claim is that alien abduction says more about human psychology and sexual worries than it does about aliens. The fears and anxieties of abductees are exactly the kinds of neuroses we expect from ordinary human beings. There is no need to invoke aliens in order to explain the abduction experience.

    Rebuttal to darksidZz's opening post

    First, darksidZz claims that alien abduction is "beyond science". I do not understand what he means by this. Perhaps he means there cannot be any actual evidence of alien abductions; if so, that idea seems to be constructed merely so that the abduction phenomenon is not amenable to investigation by intelligent people.

    darksidZz claims that historical belief in "fairies, elves and goblins" taking children away "cannot be explained rationally". In fact, the explanations for these beliefs would be exactly the same as for alien abductions, some of which I have introduced above. It is only the elusive beings themselves which have changed over time; whereas in the past people imagined demons, witches and goblins, now they imagine aliens from another planet. Popular culture obviously has a huge impact on this.

    darksidZz goes on to argue that hypnosis is an important tool for uncovering "lost memories". I will argue that hypnosis is an important tool for implanting false memories, and I will provide evidence for this in the following posts.

    David Jacobs is cited as saying that the abduction phenomenon started in the 1890s. This appears to go against the claims of elves and fairies, which are obviously a lot older. If alien abduction only started in the 1890s, why do we find historical evidence having all the same hallmarks way before that time?

    darksidZz goes on to discuss the possibility of the existence of aliens. I do not dispute the possibility that aliens utterly different from human beings might exist, and even travel between the stars. What I dispute is that there is any evidence at all that such aliens have ever visited Earth. However, I will restrict myself to arguing that no aliens are currently (i.e. within the last few years) abducting human beings, which is a much easier case to argue than one spanning all times.

    darksidZz mentions that abductees tend to report aliens who are humanoid in form (the classic "grey" is the most popular kind at the moment). This is not surprising. The image of the "grey" has become ubiquitous in recent years in popular movies, on television, in comic books and other media. Thus, when average people imagine aliens they have become less imaginative than they were even half a century ago. And writers of TV shows, film scripts and so on tend to use easily-recognised conventions that have built up over the years in order to get people into the story quickly (compare, for example, the wavering screen that for a long time indicated a "flashback").

    darksidZz claims that there is evidence of abductions, but lack of things such as photographs is totally explainable. People don't often photograph robbers in the act of committing a crime, he argues, so why should we expect photos of aliens in the act of abducting? It is worth considering that we do, in fact, often see footage of robbers committing their crimes. Closed-circuit television cameras are found all over the place these days, and many robberies are caught on tape. Whole TV shows are dedicated to showing such clips. But we don't seem to have one single video of aliens abducting a person. Why not?

    Alien abduction is a story, but we need to realise that it is just a story. There's simply nothing to suggest that there really are aliens visiting Earth, far less that they are actually taking people away or conducting medical experiments on them.
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  5. darksidZz Valued Senior Member

    That's ok I am not a cruel or mean person

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    let's continue this.

    Thank god, I've read your intro post and it's looooonngg.

    Well yes that is good, you could argue such a thing but it would be pretty difficult to prove either way

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    We share this idea

    Actually I'll concur with that statement, this is true even under normal circumstances where people seek notoriety.

    Well I'll agree with this too, you see we can't say just because the abductions happen that some aren't the result of something besides aliens.

    As much as I'd hate to agree I must, you see there have been occurrences I've read of overzealous hypnotists accidently implanting memories or even deliberately. This is one reason the abductions themselves are in such doubt.

    Oh boy, you mean I gotta find articles and stuff supporting my ideas? Grrr I'll give it a shot.

    That's fantastic thinking James, I"ll use this as a chance to rebut some of what you said.

    If we take this kind of thought to the next level we can ask ourselves the following things:

    1. Would we expect to see UFO's if indeed aliens were abducting humans?

    Answer: Yes, because of the nature of abductions and the fact people claim they are aliens we'd certainly expect to see UFO's either directly or indirectly appearing in our skies. Infact what's interesting about the phenomena is that the very things abductees claim to encounter during abductions are those very things we'd expect aliens to already have an ability to produce, ie UFO's, medical technologies, etc.

    2. Would we expect a purpose behind the abductions that is amenable to human understanding?

    Answer: Yes, and infact we're given one not just by the abductees but by their abductors themselves (indirectly). The entire reason this fiasco is happening is something I've come to recognize, terraforming.

    Let me explain, under normal circumstances you see terraforming as altering a worlds ecology or lack-there-of to support life that didn't originate there. What the aliens in this case have done is brilliant and provides them a much quicker method of colonizing the planet. They intend to blend their species with ours in a unique way, one that gives them the ability to actually live without altering the environment in any way! I realized this when I first began hearing about their plans, they wanted to create a human-alien hybrid. I couldn't understand what logic there was behind such a thing but when I thought outside the bounds of humanity I could see it clearly.

    You have built a civilization up, you go to other worlds and try colonizing, what you soon discover is that changing the ecosystem isn't so simple, it requires resources that are vast and almost unthinkable to our cultures of today. What do you instead try? Well why not try merging some species from your world into the new one? If you could perhaps take a similar lifeform and alter it so you could blend it with your own what benefits could that have? They are beyond measure...

    3. These aliens look human so can't be aliens.

    Answer: I've already posted above, during hypnosis some patients have recalled details of grasshopper-like insects performing horrible examinations on them, indeed probing their minds as though they are trash of little value. It is those reports that we can look too and it sheds light on things. According to some of the memories retrieved the grasshopper beings are actually the aliens, the probably had to come here sooner than the 1890's but it was then they began the abduction program itself. Don't you see? This is my timeline

    1890's abductions begin for purposes of blending our species
    this means the contact must've preceded the 1890's otherwise they wouldn't have known enough about humanity to even begin such a program

    So strictly speaking the actual date of their arrival is and will always be unknown, but we can determine when the contact between our species began growing, thus we have arrived at this date.

    Yes they would, however we can only say that if the society is more human-like than alien. You see we'd expect humans interacting with other humans to retrieve this sort of information but in truth we're not dealing with those circumstances. You see James the aliens are ALIEN and because of that they aren't fully understandable in the sense of that word. We can catch glimpses of them but nothing so solid and recognizable.

    One more important thing here James, you say the technology would be radically different than ours, the fact is no matter what is flying around it would still need the basics, a ship, medical equipment, tables, and many of the things people report during abductions. Just because we all use the same things does not instantly mean we are. There is evidence the tables these examinations are done on were actually designed ONLY for humans and nothing else. It's slightly disturbing actually.

    Well this is where things become unusual, there are some bizarre reports that claim various nonsense, others make more bizarre claims and nothing gets accomplished. The best I can tell you from my research is that the aliens can actually see the spectrum cameras record on and thus are avoiding being caught. From what I understand cameras record, etc. and produce an actual spectrum of light that could possibly be seen, so in effect they see a device is on and recording so avoid it. Pretty far fetched I know but not impossible.

    Well this is somewhat bizarre, yes they do claim this, we don't fully know the extent of their medical technology though and it's possible it simply masks the described scenarios. The implants are different, according to everything we know the aliens can read the mind of the abductee and actually intervene by removing the implants before someone can examine them. Again this is really creepy and strange but I don't want to use that as a reason to discount the abductees experiences.

    Yes, I know for certain unknown objects have been reported at various times in various countries. I can't tell you they were alien craft but I can tell you with 100% certainty unknown objects have been sighted on radar, just check around online and you're bound to find one unknown sighting.

    Well the fact is as amazing as it sounds according to abductees and witness's the craft are basically able to mask themselves, become invisible. The funny thing is there have been some witness's that claim to have seen abductees being pulled straight out of their windows (without them being opened) and right into the craft which is not viewable (so the abductee seemingly vanishes).

    One thing I'd like to mention here is that according to abductees the aliens will pull them through any matter but almost always try getting them near a window before they try. This lends some credence to the idea these aren't fantasy's IMO because here we see an actual limit to their technology or perhaps physics in general, whatever the means it's more convenient for them to move people through something less dense.

    The answer is that they're conducting a program, it's a program of systematically altering genes throughout generations in an attempt to basically create a life-form capable of living on Earth, but one not human. They're terraforming not the planet my friend but themselves, their very genetic makeup is being blending with ours and each generation in the family they experiment with on a genetic level to try making these freakish things more like us. The Greys were an initial attempt at this very thing which is why they look so human-like.

    I support that wilder claim, that is the only purpose for abductions at this time. Men are taken because they are trying to create a new species that will ultimately colonize, whether directly or indirectly is unknown.

    This claim is well thought out and logical, but there is one thing about it that I doubt. Just because the circumstances the abductees are placed into are unusual and trigger normal human emotions doesn't mean they are merely a product of those emotions / fears / anxieties, merely that these are what get triggered.

    Well I didn't mean it's beyond science, what I meant was you're trying to examine another entirely unique science using your own and they're conflicting. To correctly analyze abductions we need new techniques based on science but which offer us real and acceptable methods for testing.

    Well my point is really that because of those previous tales and stories the current abduction phenomena is being masked or clouded over. And while you could claim popular culture is causing these reports what if the actual and very real incidents are merely permeating into that popular culture with time? The same way Vietnam was later seen as a disaster the abduction scenarios are slowly being noticed.

    I will argue James that it's actually BOTH at the same time!

    That's because they seem identical in many ways but infact are not, just because one thing seems like another doesn't mean it immediately becomes that.

    What I would argue is that James is right, there may be no evidence we widely know of, but I also say to you that eye witness testimony even if retrieved through trance is not completely ignorable, especially if there are supporting events (to witness's like family, etc) that seem to indicate something occurring.

    This is what's so funny about the Greys, you see they didn't exist prior to the 1800's because the real alien beings (the grasshopper like ones) hadn't attempted an initial blending yet. But once they did and the Greys began taking part in abductions more and more popular culture picked up on them not because they're the ones who thought them up but because they were influencing small segments of society more an more, the abductees. So popular culture actually picked up on the Greys spreading the idea more an more which correlated to the greater numbers actually really abducting people.

    The only conclusion I've reached here is that the aliens can see the spectrum camera's operate on and are avoiding it. However their craft might not be able to hence they are sometimes seen and recorded.

    I'd say there is, abductees themselves are suggesting these events occur, and photographs of these craft are taken randomly throughout the world. Now I don't claim all UFO's are aliens of course they're not, what I can say is if one correlated sightings with abductions there might be an actual pattern.

    Whew.... that was a long one.

    I'd like to mention this too about popular culture, remember the film Mothman Prophecies? It was supposedly based on a true story right? Well someone told me that the creature described is very similar to those very grasshopper like beings that are the real aliens. And much of that book + film have hallmarks of the abduction phenomena, missing time, etc. So already we see popular culture picking up on these events even though they might not recognize them for what they are, pretty funny ehh?
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  7. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Betty and Barney Hill

    The most famous abduction story is the very first one: Betty and Barney Hill. This started the whole "alien abduction" craze. Betty and Barney apparently "remembered" being abducted under hypnosis. But there are problems with this story.

    Betty and Barney could never agree on the details of their story. When Betty first wrote down her "dream" about aliens, she said the aliens had noses like in the movie Invaders from Mars. Barney, on the other hand, described them as having no noses and wraparound eyes - just like an alien that had appeared on TV show The Outer Limits 12 days before he wrote his "memories". Barney claimed the aliens communicated telepathically; Betty claimed she talked to them in English. The psychiatrist who hypnotised them concluded that their entire story was "a fantasy". He said "[T]he series of dreams experienced by Mrs Hill assumed the quality of a fatasied experience."

    Despite the obvious unreliability of the Hills, their story remains a favorite among abduction enthusiasts.

    False memories

    In 1977 abduction investigator Dr Alvin Lawson conducted an experiment on people who claimed to know nothing about abductions. He hypnotised each of them and asked open questions such as "Imagine you see some beings in a UFO. What do they look like?" The stories these people told were compared to "actual" abduction stories. What was Lawson's conclusion? "[D]istinctions between imaginary and real abductions remain trivial or uncertain, while their similarities are crucial and extensive, showing that their narrative content and related qualities render them for all practical purposes essentially the same."

    The "greys"

    The common image of the grey alien with the big ideas was actually invented for an NBC TV programme in 1975 called The UFO incident. The image was hugely popularised by the 1977 film Close Encounters of the Third Kind, and later by Whitley Strieber's best-selling book Communion. (It should be noted that the first two programmes mentioned here are admitted to be entirely fiction, while Strieber's case contains probably more holes than Betty and Barney Hill's.

    "Recovered memories" by hypnosis

    It should be said that the vast majority of "recovered memories" of abductions are recovered under hypnosis conducted by people with absolutely zero professional qualifications in psychology or mental health. Moreover, the reliability of hypnosis as a procedure for recovering detailed, accurate memories has been brought into considerable question in recent years, both in alien abduction cases and in cases of repressed childhood sexual abuse.

    Dr Elizabeth Loftus conducted an experiment in which booklets were prepared by relatives of events from the subjects' childhoods. The relatives were asked to provide 2 true childhood stories and one definitely false one about being lost in a shopping mall (with various details, all made up). The booklets were given to the subjects to read and they were questioned about details of their memories. The result was that about one quarter of the people in the test "remembered" experiencing the false events, even adding extra details. It is stunningly easy to implant false memories, and hypnosis puts a person into an extremely receptive state to receive such "suggested" memories or to imagine that fantasies are real.

    Who gets abducted?

    We would expect aliens to choose a cross-section of people from around the world to abduct. But that is not what is observed. In fact we find:

    • Almost all alien abductees are American.
    • The vast majority of abductees are white, rather than Asian, African-American or Hispanic.
    • Two-thirds of abductees are women. Most are under the age of 40.
    • Most abductees are "above-average intelligence, creatively visual... with a life long track record of experiencing strange phenomena" not necessarily confined to alien abduction.
    • 55% of abductees are homosexual or bisexual, according to the Abduction Enigma study conducted by Kevin Randle. (This is 30 times what we would expect given the general population.)
      [*]Abductees are more likely than the general population to have attempted suicide at some time in their lives. They tend to be lonely or emotionally troubled.
      [*]Abductees tend to have difficulties with personal relationships and hold down jobs less prestigious than might be expected for their intelligence level.
      [*]Abductees disproportionately have gender identity problems, sexual dysfunction and dysfunctional families.

    All these things suggest a strong psychological need for escape - to be special. And even though many abductees claim that they had no wish to be abducted, when asked directly (in another study) "If you could do it all over again, would you choose not to be abducted?", the majority said they WOULD choose to be abducted. As a result of their "abduction", their lives improved: they were less lonely, more hopeful about the future, and so on.

    I argue that "abduction" fills a deep psychological need for many abductees.

    Strange media effects on abductions

    To pick just one statistic: the incidence of descriptions by abductees of aliens with "huge black eyes" (like the standard "grey"). Prior to release of the movie Close Encounters, 17% of abductees described this. After the release, 48% of abductees gave this description. After Strieber's book was published, this jumped to a whopping 71%. Coincidence? I think not.

    Sleep paralysis

    To avoid lengthening this post even further, I will leave this to my next post.

    Response to darksidZz's second post

    Most of darksidZz last post is a fantasy ride through all the other things that might be true if alien abductions are actually happening. darksidZz seems to have forgotten that he needs to prove that abductions are happening, before he can start to worry about why or what it all means.

    Suffice it to say that darksidZz has so far presented zero evidence for the existence of grasshopper-like aliens, or any other kind for that matter. His stories of genetic engineering are a fantasy based on nothing but wild imaginings, as far as I can tell. It might make a sci-fi story, but it has no place in this debate unless there is actual reliable evidence.

    Arguing for why aliens might want to abduct human beings (if the aliens exist in the first place, can get to Earth etc. etc.) is irrelevant until it has been established that aliens are abducting human beings.

    As for actual evidence that darksidZz points to, he claims we can rely on reports of "memories" recovered under hypnosis. As I've shown above, this is unlikely in the extreme.

    darksidZz also spends a lot of time claiming that aliens can hide themselves from video cameras and the like. He guesses this is due to some special ability to "see the spectrum cameras record on". This shows a basic misunderstanding of how a camera works. Cameras take in light; they do not emit a spectrum of light actively. darksidZz's explanation sounds like he thinks cameras send out "camera rays" which the aliens can see and avoid.

    An easier explanation would be that aliens can "turn invisible", but in that case a physical mechanism of some kind would be needed. Also, the explanation sounds just a bit like a special pleading, doesn't it? The more we try to detect the aliens, the more elusive they become. Funny that.

    Of course, if we want to investigate imaginary alien psychology, we might ask the valid question: why would these kidnapping aliens want or need to hide from the majority of humanity?

    darksidZz also attempts to explain away the absence of physical evidence by claiming aliens can magically remove implants when qualified humans (doctors etc.) start looking for them. Again, very convenient for the aliens.

    And then we have the claim that aliens can make their spaceships invisible, both to sight and to radar. Again, it is just too convenient that alien spaceships never leave any signs to reliable witnesses.
  8. darksidZz Valued Senior Member

    So here we have not evidence but certainly what can be described as unusual. Indeed I'd be interested in a case comparing non abductees with abductees to find out just how often this is found. Needless to say it does seem to be a result of some contact of one kind or another.

    More interesting data can be found when taking into account eye witness testimony of another kind, at least a few hundred years old.

    What we find interesting here is the fact this report even survived but also that it predates the popular cultures immersion into the abduction phenomena all-together. While those things described didn't really resemble Greys they sure are reported as being real. Let's see if we can find more unusual reports of this type.

    Here we have a compilation of one mans photos surrounding the UFO phenomena

    While this certainly doesn't prove abductions occur it can be a useful way of recognizing UFO's are out there.

    woOt I'm sleepie, this has been a long debate. I'll post final thoughts and more stuff later, but you can try reading about the airships of the past which are supposedly around, look here

    We see there's still unusual reports even prior to popular cultures interest in this, and while no abductions stand out I'd suggest to you that because of telecommunications, etc. people are no able to relay information which once was very impracticable to convey, that includes strange encounters with aliens.
  9. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    I am late again with this post. Apologies once again - Christmas is almost here and things are very busy for me right now.

    Sleep paralysis

    Imagine this experience: you wake up in the middle of the night and find that you can't move. You feel as if something heavy is on your chest. Perhaps you feel like you're having trouble breathing. But worse than that: you feel a presence in the room with you. Maybe you even see or hear things - strange lights, strange sounds. You might feel yourself floating, feel something grabbing you, even see a monster, a ghost or a grey alien in the room with you.

    What's going on here? Are you about to be kidnapped by aliens? Probably not. What is happening to you is a fairly common experience known as sleep paralysis. Studies show that between 1/3 and 1/2 of all people will experience sleep paralysis at least once in their life, and some will experience it more often.

    When you sleep, your brain normally shuts off control of your motor muscles, so you don't act out your dreams in reality. But the process can go wrong. Some people partly wake up while their bodily control is still switched off. This explains the feeling of paralysis. This often happens while the person is still in a semi-dream state, which can also lead to hallucinations and confusion of reality with dreams.

    Sleep paralysis has existed for centuries. A person who experienced it in the middle ages might have imagined witches, or demons sitting on their chests. In the US, where modern alien abductions are most reported, people don't believe in witches and demons as much, so they tend to see aliens instead.

    Mostly, sleep paralysis doesn't last long. The person either wakes up and is able to move and act normally after a short time, or he or she falls asleep again. But people who experience it and have never heard of the phenomenon have no explanation for what has happened to them. If they seek out hypnosis to find out, all the usual suggestability applies. If they are disposed to believing in alien abduction, they often "recover" abduction "memories".

    In The Abduction Enigma, Kevin Randle found that up to half of all abductees "reported an episode that mimicked sleep paralysis and seemed to be the event that caused them to search for additional answers". That searching led them to suspect they had been abducted.

    The bottom line

    We must ask ourselves: what is more likely? That invisible, undetectable aliens can invade people's houses and kidnap them, sometimes even without their spouse (in the same bed) knowing, or that people can mistake sleep paralysis for alien abduction? The answer is obvious, especially given the extreme unrealiability of all the other evidence posited for the existence of aliens and alien spaceships.

    It is important to remember that individual anecdotes, unverified and unsupported, provide only very weak evidence that alien abductions are taking place. With no corroboration, such stories are better put down as dreams or hallucinations.

    There is not a shred of physical evidence that alien abductions are taking place, or have ever taken place. All we have is stories which look suspiciously like they have been influenced by pop culture - TV, films, comic books, science fiction novels.

    Abduction stories are implausible

    There are also problems with many abduction stories themselves: the aliens often do not seem to obey the ordinary laws of physics. Sometimes they are reported as being able to walk through walls like a ghost, or float around defying gravity.

    Aliens must be stupid, given the questions they ask. For example, abductees have reported that aliens have asked them questions such as "What do humans eat? How long do humans live? How do they reproduce?" and so on. Such information would be VERY easy to obtain, and yet aliens seem to repeat many of the same inane questions.

    The information given to abductees by aliens is worthless. Abductees report being given important messages for all of humankind, but when they are asked what these important messages are they are almost always trite statements like "Love one another" or "Care for the environment of your planet" or "Live in peace". No abductee has ever brought back new science or technology from his or her abduction experience. In fact, there's no evidence of any new knowledge ever coming from an alien abduction.

    Are the aliens stupid, or are abductees just average people who are no Einsteins and so are unlikely to be able to invent new science or technology?

    Response to darksidZz's post

    darksidZz doesn't seem to have much of a response to any of the points I made in my previous post.

    He presents an anecdote by a UFOlogist about unusual fluorescence markings that were supposedly found on abductees. I suppose we are to take the UFOlogist's word for the truth of this tale. I'm guessing there was nothing so unusual that it was presented to real scientists for examination, if indeed there was anything to examine at all.

    darksidZz also mentions mystery "airships". The wikipedia article he links to is sufficient in itself to introduce doubt as to whether these had anything to do with alien abduction. I refer readers to the linked article if you wish to know more.

    darksidZz also links to a UFO enthusiast's site of UFO photos. Many such sites exist on the internet. Many UFO photos are proven fakes. Objects in other photos may be unidentified, but that doesn't make them alien spaceships. As evidence of alien abductions, the available UFO photos are far from convincing.

    According to the agreement for this debate, the next post from each of us will be the concluding posts of this debate.
  10. darksidZz Valued Senior Member

    Having gone through this debate with James R I feel there is sufficient doubt cast upon alien abductions as to make them questionable and even more-so highly suspect. I concede James R has proven his points and that at this time there exists no evidence at all of alien abductions actually taking place, furthermore I find one comment by him interesting. He stated "no new knowledge has ever been gained through the abduction phenomena."

    This is a very good point and one that I hadn't fully noticed, you see what we have at present is knowledge which in-a-way is human, it isn't anything new or astonishing. If abductions are real we'd expect to see some more realistic data supporting them, namely a sign of alien breakthroughs, etc. If they developed a science that was somehow recognizable and we gained something from knowing about it that might be somehow relevant, as it stands I don't know of any case where someone invented an item that was seen aboard a UFO, probably because it's never happened!

    So what needs to be done is an acceptance of the facts, and although I fall into alot of theoretical ideas sometimes I do see the facts and James R has given some that are more reasonable than abduction events. I realize now if you're making an outlandish claim you must have supporting evidence and not just eye witness accounts, no matter how they are attained. It's not that James R is unwilling to consider aliens abduct people, it's that all he asks for is reasonable evidence supporting that conclusion.

    In the world I presented the evidence was solely based on abductee testimony, while secondary value was given to physical evidence. This cannot be the way however of a scientist who must examine real phenomena and determine their cause. Do I think abductions happen? I would say they might but again I base it on the people telling their scenarios. That leaves those seeking true evidence even minor traces at a disadvantage, there isn't any. What's more important is this, setting aside the other arguments he presented what is more likely, aliens abducting humans for an elaborate plan or some unknown medical phenomena like sleep paralysis? Hell even government manipulation would be more reasonable than alien abductions. My theories and ideas are still valid but solely based on abductees experiences taken at face value, a true scientist must sometimes be more thorough.

    Thank you James R for the debate.
  11. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    There seems to be no need for a concluding post from me. So, I'll leave it here.

    Thankyou to darksidZz for suggesting this debate, and for debating in a civilised manner.
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