Definitions: Atheism and Agnosticsm.

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Cris, Aug 3, 2003.

  1. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    That kind of faith is rational. By the definition of reason, it is reasonable to be so.
     
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  3. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Okinrus,

    Inductive reasoning and blind faith are mutually exclusive. Induction is essentially a matter of probability.

    For example the sun has been rising every day for some billions of years now. Based on this past record there is a very strong probability that it will rise again tomorrow. I can’t prove it will rise tomorrow since there may be some spatial anomaly of which no one is aware that will cause the sun to explode overnight, but we don’t run our lives based on such unlikely events. This process is inductive reasoning.

    Another example might be that for many years you have been traveling to work every day and have never met with an accident, based on this evidence of past events there is a high probability that you will have an accident free journey for your next day at work, but again there is no proof.

    The significant evidence of past events allows confident probabilistic decisions to be made, this is inductive reasoning. The strength of the conclusion depends on the strength of the evidence.

    Blind faith however is quite different. With blind faith there is no past history or any evidence on which to draw a reasoned conclusion. For example, to date there is no evidence that gods do or can exist; to believe they can or do is a matter of blind faith only.
     
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  5. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    Inductive reasoning and blind faith are mutually exclusive. Induction is essentially a matter of probability.

    We don't really know the probability though. There are number theory properties that are like this. These properties are
    can be proven to be true for billions of numbers, but they are still not proven for all numbers. So of course it would take faith to believe in these type of properties. Also probability in the strict sense of the word does not apply in this situation because we don't have a valid sample. There's absolutely no way you could calculate or even estimate the chance that the sun would explode tomorrow without making a number of assumptions that are accepted by faith. Clearly the issue here is not that inductive reasoning is illogical to use, but that it does not prove anything thus requiring some amount of blind faith.

    Which requires a certain amount of faith.
     
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  7. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Okinrus,

    You seem to be deliberately missing the point. And the issue doesn't seem important enough to argue with you.
     
  8. ConsequentAtheist Registered Senior Member

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    See The Problem of Induction (1953, 1974) by Karl Popper.
     
  9. MarcAC Curious Registered Senior Member

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    I have no idea, however, my view is that it was at that point where man decided to 'go against God's will' when he had the ability to avoid it. An example; back then when we, as simian creatures, did not have the ability or restraint to deter us from say fighting and killing each other for territory, food, mates and the like we didn't need a saviour because we didn't know any better. Now we do - a bigger brain and 'who knows what' other additions. But, we still do the same things like a pack of wild animals [kill, war, steal]. But we know better, we can avoid it, but we still do it, we need a saviour.
    We could be, after all, products of evolution. However, since we developed our ability to fomulate right from wrong our brain hasn't changed much physically. In essence, evolution would have taken man to the point where he had the ability to decide between right and wrong. Man has made his choices from there.
    Basically, man 'ditched' [doesn't listen to] his conscience, which I think, is one of God's ways of communicating with us. We don't listen to love compassion, but hate, rage, anger, hurt, and revenge.... obviously not all of us.
    From above, Jesus was God's way of showing us how we should live, because we know better. Providing evolution is anything but another sky revolving around the earth, it has to be God's way of ordering [maintenance] his creation. Now however, if you notice, man may be able to affect his evolutionary path more consciously than before. The choices which accompany free will are key to our salvation, obviously. You can choose to follow God, or choose to follow Hawking and his cronies, and not all Hawking's cronies follow each other: some follow God too.

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  10. atheroy Registered Senior Member

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    marc ac

    thank you for proving me right. all through out history christianity has been proven wrong again and again. every time these hiccups occur church doctrine suddenly does a 180 to avoid being left with mud on its face. however, this is not enough to show those of the faith the truth about their religion, instead they blindly ignore the fact that once what they believe now, was blasphemy only a short while ago. so ingrained is the need to perpetuate faith, that you feel you can accept something like evolution, when it has been completely rubbished by your religion since evolution came into human knowldege. it's sad that you will bend your faith instead of question it.

    i knew it was only a matter of time before religion inducted evolution into its hall of "oh yeah, we were complete dickwads once again, ignoring sound scientific theory, something that has happened again and again. yet we never seem to learn from our mistakes. oh, wait, that's what we do". trust me this will happen. christianity will perform some fancy figurative interpretation of the bible that shows evolution was never against religion, only synomous. even now marc, you are performing nice little somersaults through gaping loops in your own belief, to perpetuate something you would be fine without. in this way christianity could go on for almost ever. i shudder at that thought.
     
  11. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Your idea of what a “religion” is, is based on current institutional religions, and as such you cannot see how it is possible for “atheism” to become a religion, which is understandable. But religion does not have to be what we understand it to be in society, it can change.
    In society, if someone who has great credibility decides that it is possible to have a religion with no aspirations whatsoever to anything other than “ourselves,” and gave logical and rational arguments to substantiate his claims, showing how it could enrich and maximise your material life. He/she could easily gain momentum.
    If we can worship or believe in “ourselves,” then it would not be seen as illogical to worship or believe in another self who is perceived as “better/greater,” this would be the natural evolution.
    As time went by, greed, lust and envy would snowball out of control, (as it does) and so on and so forth.
    Of course you would not be advised to worship in the same way people do today. No. It would be modified, discreet by comparison, even be seen as cool. It would appeal to the young. If he got the right celebrities to endorse the claim, and the right bands, with some cool gear to go with it, subtlety change all the TV shows to put the claim in a cool and trendy light. Oh! And some pretty girlies, eventually it would become a religion.
    So you see, you can call anything a religion (including atheism) in an institutionalise sense, if you make an attractive enough claim, and have shed loads of money and clout.

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    Why would someone do this?
    Money, power, sex, etc......it has nothing to do with real religion.

    Love

    Jan Ardena.
     
  12. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    Did God lie in the OT?

    Originally posted by MarcAC
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    But, we still do the same things like a pack of wild animals [kill, war, steal]. But we know better, we can avoid it, but we still do it, we need a saviour. We could be, after all, products of evolution. However, since we developed our ability to fomulate right from wrong our brain hasn't changed much physically.
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    (So you believe that the human race is a byproduct of evolution that is nothing more than "a pack of wild animals" that "needs a savior!" It seems that your concept of God would indicate that he is a bumbling idiot. I would tend to agree with you. They are called Xians!)
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    In essence, evolution would have taken man to the point where he had the ability to decide between right and wrong. Man has made his choices from there.
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    (Your statement would indicate that it was not God who created man in His image. Can you explain who, then, you believe created the universe?)
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    Basically, man 'ditched' [doesn't listen to] his conscience, which I think, is one of God's ways of communicating with us.
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    (I think a creature such as you have described would be essentially operating on instinct rather than with a consciousness.)
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    (If you believe God created the human race, then you are saying that the entire human race has rejected God. )
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    We don't listen to love compassion, but hate, rage, anger, hurt, and revenge.... obviously not all of us. From above, Jesus was God's way of showing us how we should live, because we know better.
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    (Where in the Genesis story of creation did God say he was sending Jesus to Earth to "show us how we should live, because we know better? You now admit that "we know better," but you're saying we don't follow our conscience," therefore, we need Jesus. Your statement contradicts itself. Your statement discredits God for the creation of a perfect specimen of humankind that was made in His image!)
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    Providing evolution is anything but another sky revolving around the earth, it has to be God's way of ordering [maintenance] his creation.
    ----------
    (Now, you're contradicting yourself again by saying that God provided evolution as a way of maintaining His creation! But you have indicated that evolution is essentially bad, because we are nothing more than a pack of wild animals! Which is it? Did God create just a pack of wild animals with no conscience who is raping and pillaging the Earth? Or did God in all of His omniscience create humankind above the lower animals?)
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    Now however, if you notice, man may be able to affect his evolutionary path more consciously than before. The choices which accompany free will are key to our salvation, obviously.
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    (Now, you've reverted back and discredited your previous statements! Maybe there IS hope for man. Maybe man can exercise his conscious judgment. Maybe man truly isn't just a pack of wild animals.)
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    You can choose to follow God, or choose to follow Hawking and his cronies, and not all Hawking's cronies follow each other: some follow God too.
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    (Evolution isn't something that already has taken place, and we are here in the flesh as perfect as we're gonna get. We are STILL in the process of evolution. Maybe you will understand this concept--we are in the last day of creation. Evolutionarily speaking, it's the end of the work week, so we are still in the process of growing, learning, developing, and changing. Who knows? By the time we're finished evolving, we may all look like reptiles. I suspect when this time comes, we will be so evolved that we won't even need a physical body. We will communicate entirely in spiritual form.)
     
  13. MarcAC Curious Registered Senior Member

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    No... God doesn't lie...

    No, if you read carefully I'm sure you won't see that as my position.
    I am yet to see that as a corollary of my statement.
    True, but I advise you to review what I typed... and keep in mind the mind of man - developed... 'intelligent'.
    That's why we all need to accept Jesus as our saviour
    Gen 3:15 "You and this woman will hate each other; your descendants and hers will always be enemies. One of hers will strike you on the head, and you will strike him on the heel."Quoted from the Contemporary English Version. The 'One of hers' refers to the Saviour of the human race, Jesus.
    Where do you see a contradiction? Re-phrased: We know right from wrong through our conscience but we do not follow our conscience which always tells us to do the right thing. So who can we follow? Jesus. In any event; God speaks through our conscience, and Jesus is God. We weren't/aren't listening to him there... so he came as/sent Jesus for us to listen to/follow - He is the Living Word of God.
    Man was made the way God wanted him to be - innocent/good - perfect. Throughout the course of his 'development' - providing that evolution is fact - man developed the ability to choose right from wrong, but God, who speaks though his conscience, always makes him know what is right. Man, more often than not, makes the wrong choice. Who's fault is that? God's? If so He should've just let us live as wild chimps, or not created us at all. Which would you prefer?
    I didn't indicate that we are nothing more than a pack of wild animals. So no contradiction is there. I urge you, again, to re-read my post and stop making false accusations. Thank you. I've mis-read posts before - it happens to everybody.
    Well, here again, the 'wild animals' concept is a misconception. However you want to look at it, God created human kind, in his own image, but they decided to find their own: or were coerced into doing so. I think it should be noted here, that babies aren't 'born big', galaxies don't just appear, they are thought to develop, the process of 'evolution' is evident everywhere within our environment. However, the fact still remains: evolution. Adam, or both; I see no significant bearing on Christianity as it is today. Of course when 'in His Image' comes to mind I don't see trees in heaven with three monkeys swinging from branch to branch. God is a spirit. Human beings could have had a soul since creation, or it could have entered when the body developed the 'capacity' for it. The physical body, though important in this life, is not very important when communication with God is considered.
    You needed to look at my post on a timeline. You can act like a female but not be one. I hope you didn't miss the word like in my post.
    Well, I'd have to wait a few million years to be sure, but I seee your point.
    Christians believe they will become more like Jesus in the next stage of their existence. Jesus is God, God is Spirit. Evolution is simply a change over time - go figure.

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    Don't let the name of that person GodLied get to you... God doesn't lie.
     
  14. MarcAC Curious Registered Senior Member

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    Can't put it any better than that.

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  15. MarcAC Curious Registered Senior Member

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    Can you cite some examples of this please? I'm not sure I know of any.
    Evolution has nothing in particular to do with christianity and it does not have any bearing on it. For christianity, evolution as opposed to Adam and Eve, is like a BMW Z3 as opposed to a Porsche 911. No matter which you buy, they both take you to the same place once you are headed in the same direction.
     
  16. atheroy Registered Senior Member

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    under the definition of religion (collins and many others) atheism doesn't fit. as well, the events you claim could happen, wouldn't. i for one am not into institutionalized religions as they are are problem, not a solution.

    right, i'm thinking this is your little idea about what atheists are like. in which case, i feel sorry for.

    so if you can see this why can't you see it about your own religion?
     
  17. atheroy Registered Senior Member

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    is it because you ignore them in the first place? how can you honestly not know of any?

    i have to ask, are you actually a christian? because if you are you're doing a bloody poor job of it. evolution at its core is contradictory to everything in the bible. it discounts not only adam and eve (keep on trying to make a plausible explanation for yourself, it's funny to read), but noah and his ark too (i'm sure there will be others, but i'm not well versed on the bible).
     
  18. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Wow you believe that?

    Those are empty words.

    I don't think Jan knows much about love.
     
  19. MarcAC Curious Registered Senior Member

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    Well, I am aware of the common misconceptions on what can be 'discounted' in the bible.
    As I said before, those aren't 'discounted' as such. It's just like the Z3 vs. the 911 or sitting and praying to God as opposed to jumping up down and all around - both forms of worship and praise. Some christians believe women should only wear long skirts to church, others don't. I am yet to see how 'evolution at its core' can disprove any biblical account.
    Yet you seem to think that evolution discounts the Adam and Eve account along with the story of Noah? - now that follows perfectly.

    You can't honestly show me how 'evolution at its core' discounts the story of Adam and Eve when you - apparently and admittedly - hardly have any idea of what Adam and Eve are about - keep trying though.

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  20. atheroy Registered Senior Member

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    your analogy is over-simplified and doesn't represent the relationship between christianity and evolution properly. if you are yet to see how evolution can discount christianity you should learn something about evolution first.

    i know the story of adam and eve and noah and his ark well enough to know that niether of those "events" have any plausibility if evolution occured. when i said i am not well versed, i meant comparatively to some of the guys in here, who are both theist and athiest, who have read and re-read piles of material. i won't argue over something based on scripture (i would get my ass kicked), but i know the theory of evolution well enough (if your ideas on evolution are anything to go by, go read a book) to be able to state confidently that if we are to believe the stories of adam and eve, noah and his ark, and others such biblical ideas that the universe is only a short 6000 or 10000 years old, evolution can be in no way reconciled with christianity, micro or macro. ignore it if you will, bend your belief backwards if you want to, but if you bothered to delve any depth into evolution, your beliefs would become further separated from any reconciliation of the two.

    ps, are you christian? your beliefs are certainly not those of a christian.
     
  21. MarcAC Curious Registered Senior Member

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    You say this and you don't indicate how it is oversimplified. What can be added to make it a better analogy?
    Hee hee... funny. I've seen 5 yr olds tell me the story about Noah and Adam and Eve. The message is important, not necessarily the messenger. You might know the contents of the story but do you know what meaning is intended by the author? One can take the Genesis account even in a literal sense and see no conflicts between it and the theory of evolution. The meaning of the story doens't change... bro.
    You can read till you drop and it will all be a pile of 'gibberish' [jargon] in the end, but I get your point.
    I don't see where in the bible it is stated that the universe? is 6-10 thousand yrs old. That idea stems from interpretation. Also, your vague idea of the conflicts between Adam & Eve and Evolution are based on your 'interpretation' as well. Many christians take the story figuratively, others take it literally, and evolution had nothing to do with why they take it as figurative, yet, the meaning changes not.
    I have bothered to delve very deep, in fact, and I'm continuing, and will continue to investigate the theory of evolution. Yet still, I see nothing, and you despite all your understanding still can't tell me.
    What are the 'beliefs of a christian'?
     
  22. atheroy Registered Senior Member

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    well, seeing what we are talking about is almost entirely personal opinion, evolution in no way follows the same path as christianity, once you get into them they don't lead down the same path. however, my opinion not yours.

    jesus you're white:bugeye:. so in a literal sense you don't see the differences between evolution and god creating earth in six days and adam and eve in eden? those are some strong drugs you are taking there my friend.

    interpretation. isn't that what it all comes down to? the conflicts between evolution and adam and eve aren't vague, i am not talking about meanings. i'm talking if you believe literally how adam and eve and this world came into being by the bible, then evolution sure as hell conflicts with those ideas.

    well that's great. we're obviously two very different people if we can both study evolution and come to two vastly different ideas. i see your interpretation of the bible must be almost completely figurative if you can dive into evolution any depth and find no conflicts between the two.

    i was talking mainstream. you have your own little niche belief, good for you.
     
  23. MarcAC Curious Registered Senior Member

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