Degrees of Misogyny

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Bowser, Nov 13, 2015.

  1. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Tiassa, I would have been willing engage in this conversation with you, but I find appalling your stance on 'a responsibility to show respect to people' - even while showing disrespect in the people you are saying it to. You accuse people of 'bawling' and 'slithering', and you demand that people 'answer the fucking issue', etc. This is not respectful discourse.

    You are guilty of the very thing that you rail against.

    You can point the finger at me as much as you want, but the fact is, you're being a hypocrite. You forfeit your right to thoughtful responses.

    Why would any reasonable person choose to accommodate this abusive behavior?
     
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  3. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    Really because Tiassia's entire point is that your refusing to to. typical of people like you, you can't stand to be called on your shit behavior. hell you don't even understand the point
     
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  5. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    How can men hate women?

    It does not make any sense.
     
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Many people hate many people for many reasons. Misogyny is just a small subset of the hate out there. But some reasons include:

    1) Men who think women should "know their place" and not take their job/think they can be president/be able to get a divorce etc.
    2) Men who have strong sex drives, are repeatedly rejected by women and decide that women are evil for frustrating their desires.
    2a) Men who grow up exposed to R-rated material and porn that implies that women are basically sex providers (for everyone, apparently, except them)
    3) Men who have issues with their mothers and feel they are neglected by their mothers (and by extension all women)
    4) Religions that delegate women to a subservient role, either within the church or in society at large. Thus women are "wrong" for wanting equality.
     
  8. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    Well, I prefer to believe love exists.
     
  9. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Yep, you're right. My most vivid memory of the experience left an indelible mark on my soul. It's hard to imagine anything coming close to what was offered up. But, again, misogyny lives in other forms, I'm certain. So I apologize if I seem a bit towards the extreme side of the issue. I'm sure there are more subtle measures of misogyny.
     
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    I wouldn't disdain any other part of your list, but I did want to highlight this because we've been through a version of this discussion at Sciforums, and one thing that stands out when I read your point is amplification.

    Because the idea can reasonably occur to a man that women are evil because they don't have sex with him; that much is natural. But how is that idea amplified or reinforced? Some would assert on various related subjects a set of conditions or circumstances that would require the festering misogyny of an Elliot Rodger should develop in a conceptual vacuum.

    Yet we know this isn't true, both in general and for the Isla Vista atrocity in particular. All my life, people have been trying to blame others for some of this stuff; it's really easy to blame art like books or music or movies when one wants distal isolation of the ideas and devices.

    But men of my generation learned―did not invent for ourselves, as near as I can tell―a joke about this very subject, and the setup is a simple question: What is the difference between a slut and a bitch?

    It is your point #2 framed in call and response.

    Oh, and the answer to the joke is in #2a; very well played, even if it was an accident.

    To the other, my own response only begs the question more deeply. That is to say, if my generation, or, at least, my local cohort, "learned" the joke, then whence came it?
     
  11. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    It does. Some people love other people; some men hate women. The existence of one does not negate the other.
     
  12. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    Not all men are criminal.

    (Ted Bundy)
     
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Uh - agreed - but where has anyone said that?
     
  14. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    Why is it when women make sexist stereo types about men, this is not called sexists? Men love women, but men notice how some women play the dual standard game and fight for fairness against corrupt thinking.

    Want to hear the best argument for why equal pay of women is highly deceptive and should be expected from those who use the dual standard?

    Say we had two people working in a factory on the same assembly line. According to the mantra, there should be equal pay for equal work. This sounds reasonable, since the jobs are very similar. However, say one of the two people has ten years of experience, and the other person is a newbie, should they get the same pay for the same job? The answer is usually no, due to a thing common to unions called seniority.

    Seniority means, even of you do the same job, you have worked longer and therefore will have a better chance of dealing with any out of the ordinary events, due to more experience; say the machine breaks? It also means you have earned money for your employer over a longer period of time Say he bills you at $50/hour that means you have earned him over 1 Million dollars and out of gratitude he will give you a higher pay; profit share.

    The data does say women are paid less for similar jobs, but the data also says that men work longer hours. This means men, on the average have seniority and therefore have earned their employer more money for the same job.

    If this is not fair, you may need to tell the unions that their seniority policies conflict with feminism
     
  15. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    I did.
     
  16. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    • This is not an appropriate response
    Go fuck yourself.
     
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  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Do you acknowledge that women are human and have human rights, full stop?
     
  18. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    No I must support Dave. All he is doing, so far as I can see, is trying to uphold the subtleties of the English language. Sexism (" prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.") is not identical to misogyny ("dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women"). There is overlap but they are not synonyms. Both are reprehensible, but it serves no purpose to degrade the language by eliding different terms.

    Misogyny describes a psychological state, while sexism is more about behaviour.

    Many, if not most, male sexists like women, just not in a way that many modern women find acceptable.

    Sexism is a term that can be applied equally to either sex, whereas misogyny is not (though one can, I suppose, have self-hating women).

    Sexism is culturally defined and is thus a moving target (compare what is acceptable today and what was acceptable in the 1970s, for example), while misogyny is misogyny and has remained unchanged through time.

    Frankly I find Tiassa quite hysterical - I can't think what has got into him or her.

    And now you start hurling abuse at Dave, who has remained a model of civilised conduct throughout this thread, so far as I can see.

    This is all quite extraordinary.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2015
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  19. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    It is.
    Some do, some don't.
    Bullshit. Men who work longer hours than women should get paid more than an otherwise-equivalent women. Women who work longer hours than men should get paid more than an otherwise-equivalent man. Anything else is sexist.
     
  20. Bells Staff Member

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    24,132
    Let me ask you this question, Dave..

    Have you ever met a sexist person who did not hate women in some way, shape or form? You don't think that judging a a woman's job performance by her appearance is not hateful in any way, shape or form? You don't think disrespecting women because they are women (sexism) is not also hateful? You don't think thinking someone is less worthy because she is a woman is not hateful?

    If someone is sexist, they think less of that person's sex, disrespects someone because of their sex, and that is hateful. Certainly, the victims of such behaviour find it hateful behaviour.

    Have you ever met a misogynist who was not sexist?

    In other words, the two usually go hand in hand and you cannot have one without the other. No one is disagreeing about the meanings of the words. We know they do not mean the same. But you are also discounting the fact that the two feed off each other.

    Misogyny stems from sexism as sexism stems from misogyny. While I do understand your point, you are discounting that they reside happily in the same bucket in how they affect women. And that effect is one filled with hate and disregard and subjugation and control.
     
  21. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. I know a woman who is sexist towards men.

    As I said, sexism and mysogyny are two distinct things.

    See other distinctions below.

    That's the basis of my point. You can't simply beg the question (i.e. implying the answer in the question).

    No, disrespect is not hate. Many people have little respect for many other people but it does not equate to hate. I have little respect for, say, lawyers, but I do not hate them.

    You are simply asking me again if disrespect and hate are synonymous.

    Now you are simply stating it. You have to make your case.

    Of course I haven't. Misogyny is defined by gyny - the root for female. Sexism is defining someone by their sex. Thus a misogynist is, by definition, a sexist. On this we agree.

    But it does not follow that a sexist person is misogynous.

    Lack of respect may not be intentional, or even conscious.

    Let me be clear: that does not mean it is excusable. I am not excusing lack of respect, I am simply showing that it is distinct from hatred.

    Actually you can. I listed a real world example at the top. Sexism toward men happens too.

    I have also pointed out examples where one can be sexist without hatred.

    Here's an example: a poorly-educated person who grew up without our cosmopolitan ways may be certain that "the fairer sex" should not have to do heavy labour. It's the way they grew up.

    That is sexism, because they are defining a person by their gender - but there is no hatred involved. They mean no ill will. In fact they mean well - even if misguided.

    Again, that does not make it excusable, simply that it is free of hatred.


    Chivalry is an example of sexism. Opening a door for lady. Giving a lady a seat on a bus. There is no disrespect intended. There certainly isn't any hatred there. (Again, that does not mean it is appreciated by the woman, simply that the person was more thoughtful of a woman than of a man. One should be thoughtful of everyone - man and woman alike. But that is an error of sexism, not of hatred.)

    I am not discounting it. What I am doing to dismantling the knee-jerk notion that they are one and the same. You are discounting the fact that they are not. You are using too broad a brush.

    In an ironic twist, your comment is actually sexist. You claim that the only form of sexism is towards women.

    Does that sexist comment mean you are hateful? No.


    And finally, I appreciate your adherence to civil discussion.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2015
  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    I just read exchemist's post. S/he has stated several things that I have failed to say with such succinctity.

     
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  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    But that does not necessarily synchronize with his distinction, which focuses on an assertion of hatred or lack thereof↑, and, further, contradicts the definition in the topic post↑, as Iceaura↑ has pointed out.

    Nor have you addressed the proposition that psychological dysfunction is not a useful discriminator↑ insofar as there comes a point at which apathy is wilful: "I don't hate you, but it's just not my responsibility to not be disrespectful to you". This antisocial outlook is essentially the discriminator between, "It is sexist, sure, but it is not born of hatred for women".
     

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