Democratic Socialism In Venezuela

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Michael, May 13, 2016.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    From AgainstCronyCapitalism: In socialist Venezuela today

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    ZeroHedge:
    These are hungry Venezuelans protesting that their children are dying from lack of food and medicine and that they do not have enough water or electricity. This is a country with more oil than Saudi Arabia, and the government has stolen all the money and now they bottleneck peaceful protesters and threaten them with bombs (or haul them to prison and torture them).

    On the other side, Vice President Aristobulo Isturiz, speaking on state television, said that a separate march will be held to support the extension of President Nicolas Maduro’s economic emergency decree. Mac Slavo details, the point was reached long ago where people were forced to wait in long lines for basic rations that may not even be there, or turn to the black market.

    Now, hunger and scarcity have apparently reached a tipping point that is driving people to poach stray animals and even pets for food.

    Ramón Muchacho, Mayor of Chacao in Caracas, said the streets of the capital of Venezuela are filled with people killing animals for food. In Venezuela, it is a “painful reality” that people “hunt cats, dogs and pigeons” to ease their hunger. People are also reportedly gathering vegetables from the ground and trash to eat as well. The crisis in Venezuela is worsening everyday due in part to shortages reaching 70 percent […] six Venezuelan military officials were arrested for stealing goats to ease their hunger, as there was no food at the Fort Manaure military base.

    As pure desperation sets in, crime also becomes inevitable. A man accused of mugging people in the streets of Caracas was surrounded by a mob of onlookers, beaten and set on fire, according to the Daily Mail, who published a pixeled-out but still graphic video of the man burning: An alleged thief suffered the most brutal mob justice in Caracas, Venezuela, when he was beaten up and burned alive in the street.



    --o--
    Yup, Democratic Socialism. You know, where there's more than enough of everything - we just need the money. Show me the money. You know, the paper our Central Planners print. Add a couple zeros to the end of it and *POOF* Freeeee University and Freeeee Healthcare for everyone! All we need is Da Mooney. Sho Ma Da Moonay!

    Just a bit more tax money.... that's all we needs..... tax and money. Make the rich pay theirs fairs shares. Bail out the SlumLords too! Them pooor SlumLords barely making a couple European vacations a year.... damn life is hard squeezing single mothers on State Aid. We just need Da Money!



    As an aside, I do wonder if Venezuela even has the private institutions necessary to create the goods and services needed any longer? Probably not. It's all come down to King of the SlumLords. And the monkey with the biggest stick? (yes, I said stick

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    ). You know, because free-markets (free people) are bad and GiverMint is good. Private toilets in your home are bad! Everyone knows Public toilets on the other, is clean enough to eats off da floor

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    Oh well, coming to an American City near you. But first, we need our very own Redistributor in Chief. How long is it before the Millennials will out-size the Baby's? And remember Millennials, your home is now your place of work, and if you have a SlumLord, they own your Means of Production.


    SlumLording becomes a fetter upon the mode of production, which has sprung up and flourished along with, and under it. Centralisation of the means of production and socialisation of labour at last reach a point where they become incompatible with there SlumLord integument. This integument is burst asunder. The knell of SlumLord Slummery sounds! The expropriators are expropriated!

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    Last edited: May 13, 2016
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  3. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Fuck off.
     
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  5. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    That is no thing new In venezuela there was always poverty, the only people in good economical position are those in uniform. I am sure there will be a high patriot among the military who will rise up with a cup.Then they will sent all the Castro's people people to Cuba, there are over 10000 of them probably most are military advisers
     
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  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Your snarky insolence isn't going to feed and cloth and provide medicine to the children dying thanks to ANOTHER country succumbing to the mental diseased meme of "Democratic Socialism". Which is to say: Statism. Or another way to describe it is Authoritarianism. Beating the shit out of innocent people, for the good of society.

    See, in the real world, people don't like having force used against them - and they react in ways like stopping what they're doing. Like stopping to make medicine and food and clothing. In the real world, real limits mean children die of starvation. See, there's not unlimited healthcare and unlimited university and all you need is Da Money. In the real world, there are limits. Which is why we need sound money, free-markets (free people) and laws that protect your private property (such as your kidneys). So that we can produce more goods and services - and when profit is made, that is GOOD, because it means someone is being clever and efficient, and other will follow, reducing said profits and driving innovation.

    Everything our Rent-Seeking regulatory captured gulag is not.

    But, we needn't worry, The Redistributor will usher in our very own Democratic Socialistic Utopia. And who knows, maybe we'll get our very own National-Socialist Americans Workers' Party.



    It should be noted, when given the choice, Americans WANT to buy made in China over made in America, when the price is right. And they do. Sure, they may crap on about wanting to 'support America'. But in the real world, they buy Made in China. Sure, they talk about wanting to 'help the poor', but in the real world, that's the furthest from their minds. What they'd really like to do is kick the poor while they're down, buy their houses off them, and then rent to those on State Aid. You know, get some good deals in Detroit. Welcome to the real American dream.

    Plato said this would happen in The Republic, and it has many times since his saying so.
     
  8. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    As an aside, I recall a medical school once, being a public Institution means everyone is holier than though and do the right thing - which is why you should trust your Government, pay your taxes and let the smurt people do the thinking for you. Anyway, so the professors (many on a fat 6 with benefits that would make most people blush - many slumlords to boot, or at least owned a tax deductible honey or avocado scam.... errr "farm") put the screws on the 'next generation' of doctors (research and medical). What happened? The best people quit (including professors with integrity). Those that stayed did as little as possible, ticked their boxes, and resented the 'managers' / professors.

    Guess what didn't improve? Medicine. But that's okay, when you're the only game in town. Nice little trick isn't it? Being a Public Institution I mean.

    LOL
     
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Venezuela was colonized by market capitalists long ago, and will be many years fighting its way out of the shithole ungoverned market capitalism made of the place.

    Before socialism's influence, the lack of access to food and medicine currently being protested was the norm - not a new and unacceptable development.

    The history of bad things does not begin when the first socialist politician somewhere gets a hold on some power and influence. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/vice-president-nixon-is-attacked

    When the price is right because of a totalitarian socialist government's abuse of its citizenry and landscape, you have nothing but praise for the benefits of such governance, and nothing but derogation for those who would - say - impose import/export restrictions and environmental requirements on the market capitalist's ability to profit therefrom.

    The freedom to profit from the abuse of the poor and the destruction of the land, unregulated and uncurbed, is one of the core freedoms you espouse.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2016
  10. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    The prosperous Scandinavians have "Democratic Socialism" with all the things Bernie wants for US - universal quality health care and free education.

    Venezuela is dictatorship, pure and simple, which now can't even keep its privileged oligarch supplied with essential medicines, like insulin. This despite sitting on the world's largest know deposit of oil!
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    A) We'll check in on Germany and Swedenstan in another 15 years.
    B) Of course Venezuela is a Dictatorship, Socialism relies in the violent redistribution of goods and services for the Good of Society. Works well enough in a monoculture,of hardworking honest people, where everyone probably would drive a free market in a similar direction. Not so well in a mixed ethnicity with competing cultural values, filled with lazy liars and slumlords. Or so that's been my experience. You can't divorce the economy from the culture.

    But, maybe not? Let's check on Sweden in 15 years. I've read they're already cutting services.

    Then we'll see.
     
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    And Denmark, Switzerland (among the most diverse multicultural societies on the planet), Canada, Australia, France, etc. At which time they would have had a full human lifespan of prosperity considerably more desirable than the non-socialist countries of comparison, and if forced to alter their approach would be subject to the disaster of having their circumstances reduced partway to the level at which the non-socialist paragons of corporate capitalistic virtue will have been operating - as their normal state - over that entire time.
    That is the common fate of oil-rich (or gold-rich, diamond-rich, coltan-rich, etc) victims of past colonialism. It even has a name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse .

    Venezuela may or may not be able to dig itself out of the economic hole in which centuries of resource exploitation by powerful outside interests have buried it, but no particular socialistic ideology is a credible root of its fundamental problem.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2016
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    LOL

    Sweden now has ghettos, and in response to their multicultural paradise, some public pools privatized and now change fees to "deal with" the social benefits of said multiple cultures. Exclusivity is already being used to prevent the had elements in society from coming in contact with decent moral people, just as it has been iced in the USA. We all know what this devolves into. Welfare Estates and Slumlords.

    IMO some cultures are aesthetically better alighted with modern civil society. I hardly think a bunch of Japanese immigrants residing in Sweden would have resulted in women fearing being raped in a game of let's rape the little girl (such a part if Arabic culture they have a name for this "game" - Taharrush, an actual bonefide rape culture) or pooping in the pool, because, well, why the f%ck not, it's warm).

    To suggest Switzerland is multicultural because it converges on a few European States with millenia of shared history is asinine. IMO Then so is Italy, just look at all the local dialects and foods. LoL
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2016
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    What happened in the US was not "exclusivity" protecting the "decent moral people", but racism protecting the wealthy white people.

    No, it's accuracy. The cultures in Switzerland are quite distinct - in religion, in language, in separate historical traditions (including conflict), in all the normal characteristics used to identify different cultures.

    To call the US situation "multicultural" because its culture divided people on the basis of race is to confuse yourself. Badly.

    Meanwhile, what is happening in Venezuela is only partly the predictable and familiar failure of a central government to micromanage a modern economy. It is also - and a reasonable case can be made more significantly - the setback and possible failure of the Venezuelan government to gain governing authority and control over predatory corporate capitalist interests operating within its borders, many of them foreign in the first place.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2016
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    LOL
    Asians, a minority, are wealthier than "white people". Exclusivity doesn't seem to be working on them.... better bring that up with the committee to keep wealthy White People wealthy. LOL

    I've known many a white people in the USA, and most are more interested in what you know, what skills you have, if you can be trusted, and if you can produce the goods, than you being white. As a matter of fact. Whites are probably the most egalitarian people one could know, exemplified in the fact that most so-called White Societies are rapidly becoming non-White due to the generous immigration and Welfare policies they have towards, non-Whites. Not that it matters much to me, my family's not white

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    Have you ever lived in a non-white country? Believe me, White People are unusual in their lack of racist attitude, particularly Americans. It's probably one of our strong points. Sad to see Americans smeared through the mud on this one. Particularly White Men.
     
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  16. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Fuck off.
     
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  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    That's irrelevant.

    The point was this: "What happened in the US was not 'exclusivity' protecting the 'decent moral people', but racism protecting the wealthy white people."

    That's historical, political, economic fact. The banks drew red lines on their maps, and they followed political boundaries. Jim Crow laws were laws in reality, not metaphor. And none of that had anything to do with "multi" cultures.

    It doesn't matter how racist other people are. The slums and welfare ghettoes of the US are a consequence of the political and economic influence of racial bigotry, within US culture - not imposed from outside, or set off by immigration of some other culture. There's nothing "multicultural" about them, any more than the caste systems of India are examples of "multicultural" setups.
     
  18. rpenner Fully Wired Staff Member

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    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-shams/sexism-isnt-an-arab-cultural-practice_b_9022056.html

    Michael, you hate-filled liar, please for the love of all things good and decent, shut up and stop parroting the inputs that your in your blinkered ignorance believe are factual. The phrase "تحرش جاما’إي" was just the phrase "group harassment" translated inexpertly (taharrush gamea and "the Taharrush game" being just two examples of this) into Arabic to make it seem more scary to you racist types. Your racism is being used as a tool by those who seek to control you to keep you ignorant and angry at the wrong people.
     
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    (A) Islam isn't a race, it's a superstition.
    (B) Race is a mental construct. An idea. It'd be like saying blue eyes are a different 'race' from green eyes or brown. Utterly ridiculous.
    (C) As for Taharrush. This Egyptian doctoral candidate (residing in Germany) would disagree with you. But maybe she's a hate-filled liar lair pants on fire racist?

    Note: Arabic culture is not synonymous with Islamic, there are plenty of Jewish and Christian and Atheist Arabs. Unless you're going to suggest cultures do not exist either? I'm pretty sure our political "Leaders" make it clear, multiculturalism is our strength. Also, I'm not a collectivist, another reason why I think socialism as a concept is asinine. What's important is individuals and their actions.


    As for Venezuela, the Democratic Socialistic government is staging the largest military drills in their modern history. Clearly a Utopia. I do wonder though, I wonder how Japan and Hong Kong and Taiwan and Korea and now China somehow escaped the horrible free-market capitalists to become economic juggernauts? Hell, Japan was nuked twice and is currently occupied by the US Military. Venezuela on the other hand, sits atop the world's largest oil supply.

    Oh, but I'm sure "Democratic" Socialism has nothing to do with it. AND it's very very very very VERY important we qualify Socialism with "Democratic", you know, because that somehow has something to do with something.... Just ask Bernie.
     
  20. rpenner Fully Wired Staff Member

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    Not an argument that you aren't a racist. Also, you said "Arab culture" so you are shifting goalposts.
    Not an argument that you aren't a racist. Also your citation of an article which identifies (perhaps falsely) the crowd of harassers as being mainly youth of Arab origins, weakens your attempt to distance yourself from endorsement of this particular social construct. Just because it is invented doesn't mean it isn't communicable.
    Academic credentials (which these are a weak form of) are not proof of not being wrong or insane. Why do you say "residing in Germany" ? She may have been born in Egypt if she is the same H.K. working on the research project „Transformation, Demokratisierung und Islamisierung in Südostasien und dem Nahen Osten aus der Geschlechterperspektive“ four years ago but would that make her Egyptian or a good source? Frau Kindelberger submitted one article for an English-language web site/newspaper, so we don't have much of a track record. Also your cited article doesn't seem to support any specific objection about my post.
     
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The current "welfare estates" and slums of the US were created during the Great Migration of black Americans fleeing from the racial oppression of the Confederacy to the big cities of the North. They were shunted into ghettoes and made vulnerable to slumlords by white people, on the basis of their US racial designation and membership in the "black" race.

    This is how you described that :
    Describing one race as "decent moral people", and another race as "bad elements in society", is called "racism". The people who do that are "racists".

    Japan did it by strict protectionism and rigid governmental control over foreign investment and its own currency, aided by the US military (who did not want Japan to make rich and powerful friends). China did it by one of the bloodiest civil wars ever fought, culminating in the mass "re-education", persecution, and execution, of anyone in the country who had anything to do with foreign corporations and capitalist involvement in their internal economy - even intellectually. In both cases, and that of Hong Kong and Taiwan, they were aided by a lack of an overwhelmingly attractive resource pool within their borders, something that would make the likely cost of breaking their governments and dealing with the aftermath worthwhile. (The Chinese had had one in the past, the northern coal fields that attracted the Japanese, but the Japanese were removed by others who did not need Chinese coal).

    Venezuela was neither powerful enough to defend itself, or lucky enough to have nothing the "horrible capitalists" wanted. They lost, and suffered (and suffer) the consequences.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2016
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    LOL
    Okay, if that floats your boat, go with it.
     
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    This reply suddenly reminded my Poppers' complaint regarding psychoanalysism. Regardless of any and every bit of evidence, the psychoanalysis always comes back with an answer.

    Not a very good answer, but there's always a post hoc explanation. I wonder what you would have said IF Japan had ended up poor? I'm sure you'd have some post-hoc explanation of sorts. Something to fit with your cognitive biases. That's the problem isn't it? I mean, with an n of 1.

    Okay, what are your predictions for Sweden and Germany? Mine are pretty clear, I don't care if they're Democratic Socialists or just plain vanilla Socialists. In another 25 years, they'll look just like the USA - for the exact same reasons. As a matter of fact, wages are being dragged down in Sweden as we speak, public facilities are being privatized, no-go areas of once safe cities / ghettos now exist and the 20 somethings are unable to afford a house as the housing prices are rocketing.
     

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