Democratic Socialism In Venezuela

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Michael, May 13, 2016.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    So? Well, it seems reasonable that a society composed of people with an average IQ of 65 and inclination towards sloth, would create different governing structures than one with an IQ of 100 and an inclination towards hard work.

    Anyway, in 50 years some northern European States will have populations with IQ's that are on average - less than 95. Not to mention, we can collect data on various experiments on going. Like Swedenstan.

    Let's see how things unfold.

    Though, technological change will probably make most of this a mute point regardless.
     
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  3. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    And yet, it was the freest nation on the face of the Earth. Without a Federal Government able to provide for "the people", Americans were able to create the post modern era.

    Anyway, this is why my argument is a moral argument. Initiating violence against morally innocent humans is immoral. You can claim it's for the Good of the Nation or the Will of the Gods, that doesn't change this fact.

    Anyway, which part of the following are you in disagreement about?
    Prosperity is defined as leisure time plus civil liberty.
    Prosperity is gained through free people trading in an agreed upon money within the law.
     
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  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    That's a "society". Societies don't inherit IQs, and inheritance of IQ is not involved in your little scene.

    To repeat: 65 is about the expected IQ score of the average citizen of the US in 1776, on a modern test. That's not counting the slaves.
    No, they won't. At current trends, they will have populations that score between 110 and 115 on today's IQ tests - average.
     
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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    No, it wasn't. It wasn't even as free, for the average resident, as the European countries supplying its population.
    Nonsense. Without the central and dominant contribution of an empire-building Federal government, its providing of free-shit land and free-shit resources and free-shit public services, the creation of the postmodern era (hundreds of years in the future) would have been impossible.
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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  9. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    The Flynn effect isn't happening. What is happening, according to Flynn, is the IQ is dropping. And has been dropping for a decade in the West. Why? Probably because the 'Flynn effect' was measuring a combination of better nutrition and then began measuring test taking and assessment experience. It's not unusual for kids to begin 'prepping' for State tests as early as Grade 1. So, it appeared that real IQ was going up. What was really happening was the IQ test was no longer accurately measuring what it was designed to measure. Hell, most tests do not measure what they are designed to measure. Millions of people pay millions of dollars to prep agencies specifically to ensure that the test they take - measures something different than what it was designed to measure (thank you GiverMint Regulatory Capture)

    But, regardless, we will see. That's the nice thing about empiricism. What is real, is real. All the 'experts' and all the people in 'authority' can all crap on all day long. At the end of the experiment, the results are what they are.

    So, let's see how things work out.

    Note: No one knows what the IQ was in the USA in the mid 1800s. My guess was, whatever it was, the 'g', whatever that is, was very close to what it was in the early 1900s. Probably around what an IQ of 100 would be measuring. However, that's not what makes a society prosperous, what makes a society prosperous is sound money, law and freedom. My argument is a 'republic' requires the addition of an IQ around 95 or above. Which, according to the trends, isn't something we're going to have to worry about soon enough.

    Here's something you can agree with via New Scientist: It would be stupid to ignore a drop in human intellect
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2016
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Whatever is happening, is happening. What is, is

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    My guess is, the sun will set in the West, and rise again, in the East. Seems reasonable, to me.
     
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    But it did. From the invention of the IQ test until very recently at least, it did happen.
    That was ruled out, in the initial studies. But in this discussion it doesn't matter what it was measuring.
    1) An IQ score does not measure its own components.
    2) No - not on a modern test. You would have to assume that IQ scores dropped by almost forty points across the board between 1900 and 1950. Among other things, that would invalidate your explanations for the Flynn Effect.
    So far, you have refused to pay attention to how anything worked out in the past. My prediction is you will continue to refuse to recognize how things work out in the future, as soon as they become the past.
    And that has been contradicted by the historical evidence - no republic formed before about 1950, that we know of, had a citizenry with an average IQ higher than 85 or so on a modern test.
     
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    The genetic component to IQ may be up to 75%.

    LOL

    The Framers reinvented something similar to what the Greek Philosophers brought to Greece 2500 years ago (they also had an IQ higher than 95). Are you going to argue that the Framers had average IQs lower than 95? Give me a break. As for the general population: We had a LIMITED government. The only people who voted were those who owned land, were white and male. Thus, in a society where the Government is severely LIMITED - and the people couldn't vote for free-shit, thus couldn't destroy the republic in a cloud of socialism (exactly as Plato wrote in the Republic 2500 years ago) a republic can be maintained. A FAR cry from the Welfare States in the north of Europe.

    Anyway, what you'd need to do is to provide evidence of the average IQ of the average white land holding male in the 1800s. You can then argue that in a republic with a LIMITED government and an electoral college, with sound money, no central bank, no governmental regulations but tasked mainly with delivering the mail and enforcing property rights and contract obligations, with freedom to trade as one sees fit under the law - that in this sort of society, a Republic thrives (for a time).

    If you want to believe that a society with an average IQ of 65 has the ability to invent and maintain a functional democracy - go ahead and believe this. I will disagree. I believe it's more likely that societies with average IQs of 65 are usually ruled by Religious leaders and/or an Aristocracy. For low IQ people, telling them policy comes from the Will of the Gods (who can see in their head) is likely to be a necessity.

    As an aside, low IQ people can use fiat currency and money. Currency units are highly abstract in nature. Inventing functional money, debt obligations, fiat currency vs sound money, that requires a high IQ. The Framers had very high IQs (which is why we didn't have a central bank). The average voter? Who knows? But, genetically, it was 75% similar to ours

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  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I believe the average IQ in Greece is in the low 90s. How is their Welfare State working out for them? In Venezuela it's in the mid 80s.

    Anyway, we'll see.
     
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    That doesn't matter. You are talking about societies, remember?
    No. Are you going to change your argument so that you are talking about the IQ of a few elites, instead of the average IQ of a society?
    Society is just landholding white men? The voting in the national elections held before 1828 governed all of US society - State and county and town - ever since? What superpowers they possessed.

    Ok. Below 90 on a modern test, according to all the evidence we have. The average IQ was still below 90 until after WWII, and seems to have been increasing all those earlier years.
    What I pointed out was that no society on the planet is known to have had an average citizen IQ over 85 on a modern test until sometime in the middle of the twentieth century. So your assertion that an IQ of 95 or above is required for governance as a republic is a strange one, and requires a great deal of support via evidence and argument.
    The Framers first chartered a central bank in 1781, at the behest of Alexander Hamilton - George Washington's Secretary of the Treasury, and a famously intelligent man. It was maneuvered out of its role about five years later, and lost its central banking role entirely in 1789 when the second Constitution replaced the Articles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_North_America

    The Framers immediately chartered a new central bank, in 1790, again under the influence of Alexander Hamilton.

    And so forth.

    You are simply uncanny in your choices of historical example. Not just wrong, but exactly blowing your specific argument out of the water, each and every time, in ways that anyone with five minutes and net access can debunk in less than a dozen mouse clicks.
     
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    It probably does matter, given 'societies' are composed of people - and IQ measures something (primarily genetic) that predicts how well those people subjectively experience and interact with their environment.

    Okay, send me the citation of the IQ of your average white land holding American voter in the 1800s (which was, primarily genetic - and this hasn't changed for a similar individual in modern America).



    Whatever it is that the IQ test is measuring (we'll just call it 'g') it looks to be around 75% genetic. If you want to believe that a population with average IQ scores below 95 can maintain functional democracies - feel free to believe this. If you think a population with an average IQ of 65 is able to create the institutions needed to maintain a modern society (let alone a democracy) - again, feel free to believe these ideas. I believe you're in error (particularly regarding the Northern Welfare States you idolize). I'd also suggest, if you cherish Northern European style societies, those Welfare States you think are so wonderful - then one would think you'd want to protect them from the possibility of collapsing due to your (probable) erroneous beliefs.

    But hey, whatever. Let's see how the ghettos of Swedenstan look in a few more decades.


    As for the the Framers - they are not an amorphous blob and many did not want a Central Bank, let alone 'immediately' set about chartering one. They argued about having a Central Bank - and the one that Hamilton foisted on the American public (Hamilton, who hoped to recreate the English Aristocracy in the USA - which he found preferable to a free society) promptly went BUST.

    LOL

    Much like the other Central Banks that were foisted onto the public. They all promptly went bankrupt. Including, hopefully, what our modern day Central Bank is going to do soon enough

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    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    It doesn't matter. You are projecting familial inheritance into populations, and that's invalid reasoning.
    Ignoring your irrelevancy about white male landowners, or your obsession with the years between 1789 and 1828:

    No society is projected to have had an average IQ above 90 in a modern test until after some time around WWII at the earliest. That's because of the Flynn effect, which knocks off a couple of points per decade. The IQ test had not been invented in the 1800s, so that kind of projection is all we have.

    We have several examples of both of those - every functional democracy in existence before 1950, every modern society whose institutions date back to the early 1800s and earlier.
    You said we didn't have a central bank then because the Framers had high IQs.

    We had a central bank then. We had in fact two, up until and then immediately after the current Constitution was "Framed", founded by the Framers, including by the very smartest and highest IQ Framers,

    and neither one went bust.

    The first one had its central banking functions removed by government after a few years, and remained as a still solvent and profitable private bank or branch in various guises into modern times. The second one was privatized while still doing fine - the government's stock sold to private investors, who were happy to buy, and then reduced its central bank functions, eventually allowing its charter to expire. Whereupon it was immediately replaced with yet another central bank, but now (1812) we are not in the "Framers" era and the country is going to war - things are changing.

    How, and why, do you keep coming up with these silly claims? This is all Wiki level net search stuff, there's no reason for you to keep getting everything wrong all the time.
     
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    My argument is that democratic societies require something we'll call 'g' and this 'g' correlates with about an IQ score of 95. Further, 75% of 'g' is genetic. Therefor, once nutrition and education is accounted for, and averaged out, some nations will still fall far below the necessary required 'g' as an average across their population - and they will be unable to maintain (let alone ever develop) democratic institutions.

    Further, IQ also correlates with other internal states (like perseverance and motivation) that were probably selected - which is why 75% of it is genetic.

    You do agree that genes are selected for? You do agree that different populations of humans have different genes?

    As for the "Flynn effect"; sure, better nutrition may explain SOME gains in IQ - but not 75%, which is genetic. Further, since the introduction of Government school standardized testing, much of the Flynn effect can be explained by experience at taking tests. It should also be noted, IQ scores have been dropping for over a decade in the West. This correlates well with kids who have spent a lifetime taking Government Standardized tests - now that the tests can be controlled for, we see the effects of Socialized education. Just like everything else the Government touches, it's turning to shit.

    Your attempts to rewind the Flynn effect back in time to suggest Americans in the 1800s had IQ's well below 95, is not substantiated with evidence. The so called Flynn effect itself is probably way overstating any recent gains in IQ. I also noticed you like to refer to the 'modern' IQ test. Qualifying our strawman are we?

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    Well, 75% of the needed 'g' was there in the 1800s.

    Make no mistake about that

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    Luckily, we have some experiments running in the North of Europe. Let's see how millions of low IQ individuals work out for the 'democratic' institutions of Northern Europe. My guess is, soon parts of Swedenstan will look like parts of Syria or Chiraq. Watch as the social services they took for granted is rolled back due to economic necessity. As a matter of fact, it's already happening. And you know the most interesting part? It may only be possible, for large groups of low IQ people, to be organize as a functional society within a Theocracy. Or under a strongman Aristocracy. It may just be, that the only way to prevent some people of low IQ, from raping, is to cover up the women they want to rape. Out of sight, out of mind. Which is fine. Because that's the beauty of multiculturalism: Burkas, Bronze Age Gods that hates homosexuals, all a 'cultural enrichment'.

    Lucky Sweden. Yes, let's see how things work out for Swedenstan.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2016
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    The New Yorker: Venezuela, A Failing State

    The medical student told me to use his name. He said he didn’t care. “Maduro is a donkey,” he said. “An asshole.” He meant Nicolás Maduro, the President of Venezuela. We were passing through the wards of a large public hospital in Valencia, a city of roughly a million people, a hundred miles west of Caracas. The hallways were dim and stifling, thick with a frightening stench. Some were full of patients waiting silently in long lines outside exam rooms. Others were dark and deserted, with the overhead lighting ripped out. The medical student, lithe and light-haired, kept us moving, peering through swinging doors, conferring with colleagues in blue scrubs.

    We ducked into a room stuffed with rusted bed frames and dirty plastic barrels, where in a corner a thin young man was propped on a bed without sheets. He watched us weakly. A young woman in a pink T-shirt stood beside him, rigid with surprise. The medical student gently asked if they would answer my questions. The young man nodded. His name was Nestor. He was twenty-one. This was his wife, Grace. Three weeks earlier, he had been ambushed on his motorbike and shot three times, in the chest and the left arm. “They were going to shoot me again, but one of the malandros”—bad guys—“said I was already dead. They took my motorbike.” Nestor spoke slowly, his voice uninflected. His skin was waxy. The wounds to his arm and chest were uncovered, half healed, dark with dried blood. There was a saline drip in his right arm and, at the foot of his bed, an improvised contraption, made from twine and an old one-litre plastic bottle, whose purpose I couldn’t figure out.

    Did the hospital provide the saline?

    No. Grace brought it. She also brought food, water, and, when she could find them, bandages, pain medication, antibiotics. These things were available only on the black market, at high prices, and Grace’s job, in a warehouse, paid less than a dollar a day.

    “The hospital doesn’t even give water,” the medical student said. He was watching the hallway. He studied Nestor briefly. “The lungs fill with liquid after someone is shot in the thorax,” he told me. “We usually take the bullet out if we can. But, either way, the wounds need to be drained.”

    --o--
    Just think, when (not if), when you Progressive Socialists get your way in the USA, we'll all get to live like that Progressive Socialist paradise Venezuela. Complete with Dear Leader.

    It's baked in the cake.

    Here, why don't we just go ahead and rewind the clock to 2006. We'll go to a little rag / magazine called THE PROGRESSIVE. Here's their Hugo Chávez Interview



    Like I said, NOTHING will convince you - right up until the day after the zoos run out of animals to eat. You're be praising The Nation State and Dear Leader - right on up until the end.

    That's the nature of religion.
    In this case, State Authoritarianism.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2016
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    And my observation is that no democratic society that formed before about 1950 featured any such thing.
    That's invalid reasoning - the 75% is familial, not population, inheritance.

    Even more striking, you cannot account for such factors as nutrition and education - you lack the ability to "average out" those factors. For example: For all you know, the 75% of IQ that is your familial inheritance (accepting your number, which is bs but doesn't matter here) is an inherited somatic factor that provides a local advantage in brain development given the local environment - lactose tolerance, say, or malaria immunity.
    Uh, yeah, it is. Americans in the 1930s had IQs well below 95 on a modern test - that was actually measured. No society on this planet had an average IQ over 95 on a modern test until decades later.
    That's been running for 150 years or more. So far, so good - or did WWII result from attempted democracy in societies mentally incapable of it?
    I've posted like that from the beginning. It's to prevent you from dodging - you are using modern test IQ numbers throughout for the immigrants to Europe etc, so you will use them for your historical comparisons as well, in order to make sense.
    That was not necessary in 1776 America. Or in Greece around 1000 BC. Or among the Iroquois nation in the US after about 1500.

    But you keep on yapping about IQ - nobody will notice the bigotry you are attempting to justify. I promise.
     
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    LOL

    One more time: 75% of IQ is genetic. Further, IQ correlates with 'g' - which is mostly genetic. Furthermore, many behavioral traits are genetic. Behaviors that are important for the functioning of a democracy. Particularly for the Welfare States you cherish - they're already built on unsound Ponzi scams. Also, American voting citizens of the 1800s would have the same g as their ancestors of today. Would they score as high on a 'modern' IQ test as some kid who's been taking these tests for 12 years - probably not. They still have the same relative 'g'.

    IQ tests are objective. By definition, they cannot be 'bigoted'. This is evidenced by the fact Asians score higher than the people who created the tests. And Jews, a historically persecuted minority, score even higher!

    I'm positive you're just arguing to argue. The data is in. These are the conclusions from the scientific studies. Hell, even the genes are being identified. What? Chemical reactions are bigoted? LOL

    Anyway, let's let empiricism provide us with the answers. We will see what the Scientific method can glean from the evidence. Let's measure the success of Progressive Poster Child Swedenstan as things work out across the next couple of decades.

    Just another Progressive Socialist Utopia on the bonfires of history

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    Last edited: Nov 15, 2016
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    About 75% of whatever it is that IQ is measuring, is inherited. Some studies suggest 85%.

    And guess what - when you measure a bunch of people, in a group, you can determine the average of that group. In Japan, for example, the average is 105. They have a functioning democracy. In Swedenstan, the average is 99. They have a functioning democracy - for now. In Syria, the average IQ is 83. They're ruled by a dictator. In ultra rich KSA it's 84, they live in a Theocracy.

    Look, you can argue with the evidence all day long. It is what it is.
     
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    It probably was and is.
     

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