Democratic Socialism In Venezuela

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Michael, May 13, 2016.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    So? It's like height, then? http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/04/05/the-height-gap
    So as I assumed, you are using modern IQ tests.

    They have been adjusted by 2-3 points per decade, to account for the Flynn Effect. Recalibrated. That's how Flynn discovered the effect - he noticed the significance of the continual recalibrations that had been necessary to keep the median score at 100.

    The modern 105 scoring Japanese would have crossed the line into modern 95 point territory at the earliest in the 1960s and more likely in the 1980s, the Swedes in the 1970s or '80s, and so forth.

    As far as I can think of off hand, not a single modern functioning democracy was founded among people whose average score on a modern IQ test was higher than 90. Can you think of any exceptions?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2016
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The Greeks and Iroquois alive today - the people who inherited 75% of their IQs from the founders of those old democratic societies, according to you - do not average 95 on a modern IQ test. You've been using Greece as an example of inadequate IQ yourself - and the dwellers in the modern Reservations and slums of American cities likewise.

    That's about as dumb a post as even you are capable of.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2016
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  5. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    The Greeks of today, are not the Greeks of 2500 years ago. Genetically, they're different people. The average IQ in modern day Greece is 92.

    I suspect, Swedenstan will end up looking a bit like Greece as the average IQ decreases from 99 to 92. Maybe 80 years?

    If the average IQ continues to decrease, say down to the mid-80s. Then I suspect Swedenstan will end up looking a bit like Venezuela. Including a 'democratically' elected strongman.

    If the average IQ continues to decrease, say down to the mid-60s. Then I suspect Swedenstan will end up looking a bit like Syria. Complete with Theocracy. As a matter of fact, some places in Swedenstan do look like Venezuela and other's very much resemble Syria. Let's see what the future brings to our little Progressive Socialist experiment.

    Strength In Diversity, indeed

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    LOL


    Further, having an IQ of 95 or above, doesn't mean that the society will be a functional democracy. That other Worker's Paradise: North Korea, is a great example of a very high general IQ, probably >105 that isn't a representative government. As a matter of fact, NK is a wonderful example of how even in a high IQ society, progressive socialism / State Authoritarianism, destroys even the chance a clever society has at forming the institutions that underlie democracy.

    This is baked in the Statist Cake.

    They are capable of developing nuclear missiles - so, there is something said for high IQ societies, even the Worker's Paradises that (thanks to zero market-freedom) lack the ability to feed themselves.


    But don't worry, minus serious reform to our legal system (including the closure of our Central Bank and IRS) we will get your Progressive Redistributor in Chief - give it time iceaura. It may not be that political-hack and sellout B.Sanders. But someone. We'll get our free K-14 and free Government Welfare Estates and free GovernmentCare and all the other free-shit that the Government likes to shit out of it's bowels on the body public.

    Baked.In.The.Cake


    No backing the train out of the tunnel now. But, thankfully, we are reducing the speed at which we will reach destination Progressive Utopia. Hopefully we can make a few more scientific discoveries before we arrive

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    A 8 - 12 year reprieve would be helpful.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2016
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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    That's not true. The Greeks of today are largely the genetic descendants of the Greeks of 2500 years ago, the major admixture coming from the Romans during their hundreds of years of functioning democracy.

    Why do you continually make false claims of fact? You are on the internet - the tools of research are literally at your fingertips.
    On a modern IQ test. Which means the average IQ during the rise of democracy in Greece would have been - probably, assuming a logistic curve as in most biological phenomena - somewhere in the high 70s low 80s on a modern IQ test.

    Like the modern Iroquois, who likewise have clear genetic inheritance from the democratic Iroquois of the 16th and 17th Century.
    Meanwhile, this is still on the board:
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2016
  8. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    You have a citation comparing the genetics of your voting Athenian Citizen 2500 years ago, and today's voting Greek?

    Shit, Sparta was already an inbred mess by the time the Romans 'conquered' them / brought them along to the East as part of their propaganda campaign. And that was THEN.
     
  9. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    You're going to compare the Iroquois Confederation with Greek Democracy and the Roman Republic?

    LOL

    Give me a break.
     
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    "Voting" Greek?
    You're the guy making the big deal about genetic heritage. That's what "then" means.
    Seems reasonable. The Confederation was comparable in population with one of the Greek city-states - Athens, say, or Sparta - at the time of their establishment of democracy, and had other similarities.

    Democracy has been invented by many people, none of them with modern test IQs over 90 - the Iroquois version was the direct model for the American one. The old Greeks and Romans apparently came up with the idea independently.

    Unless you have come up with a modern functioning democracy founded by a society scoring higher than than 90 on a modern IQ test.
     
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    No, I'm presenting the argument that democracies are developed and maintained in societies where the average IQ is 95 or higher. Why? Because whatever it is the IQ test is measuring, it correlates with both the necessary mental faculties and disposition required to maintain a democracy. This doesn't mean that having a high IQ leads to democracy. Or prosperity. Prosperity requires free people, law and sound money. Not a democracy. A relatively low IQ population with freedom, law and sound money, will be more prosperous (and more moral) compared against a high IQ Progressive Socialistic Workers' Paradise (See: North Korea).

    Why do I mention genetics? Because it's important and relevant. Other than that, I have stated numerous times, the only solution I plan to support is peaceful parenting.

    Why is it relevant? Because Progressive Socialists are in the process of destroying another society - in this case, most of your cherished Northern European Welfare States. It's important that we study and glean as much information from their eventual decline and collapse as possible. I'm sorry if that doesn't sit well with your preconceived notions of the way society should work. Too bad.

    Second of all. Sweden agreed to take in hundreds of thousands of low IQ refugees because (A) They drank the kool-aid. (B) They made too many promised obligations (socialism and it's inherent ponzi scam) and now need tax chattel and mistakenly think they get to import some already bred up and ready to pay the Nation State. Well, they did this to themselves. And they better not shirk their responsibility towards their new generational dependents either. Nor the millions of family members/marriageable first cousins soon to be Sweden Citizens in the years to come (which is perfectly fine, according to a cultural relativist).

    Thirdly, you seem to have ting of bigotry about you. The sort of over politeness I've seen oh so many times. Maybe I am wrong, but you seem somewhat too accepting of Venezuela's collapse - as if, well, you know those 'South Americans' what do you accept. Even to the point of suggesting Hugo wasn't an elected representative. Whereas with Sweden, well well well, they're *cough* European *cough*. Then you dance around the facts. Like IQ being genetic.

    Let me make sure you are clear here - I'm talking about general IQ. Not your tan line. It's 75% or more genetic.



    Lastly, maybe you don't get it? They're done for. The only way to fix this mess peacefully is to completely end the Welfare State - which will happen, once it's too late. But not before so. Sweden will look like Venezuela in the coming decades. Some places already do look like Venezuela. Others like Syria. And those tens of thousands of kids with low IQ, they're not going to be happy serving White Swedes. Who the hell would be? You? No. No body would be. And I guarantee, they will think there's a conspiracy. Why? Because they're going to be told everyone is the same, all cultures are relative and anyone can make it. Therefor, if they're not making it, it's because of them - they suck, or better - the Swedes a bigots.

    Just like in the USA. IMO, that's not fair. To anyone.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    22,685
    Which you cannot provide a single example of. Every known democracy was developed and maintained, originally, in a society with an average IQ of 90 or lower on a modern test.
    First, you would have to explain their rise and success. Second, you would want to compare their "collapsed" condition to other States, as well as their own past. Even collapsed as they are, they are far better places to live than most - what are they doing right?
    You don't know what you are talking about. In particular, you don't know what genetic inheritance is or how it works.
    Compare height - I handed you a link. It, too, is "75% or more genetic".
    When that does not happen - as it did not happen in Cuba, or Costa Rica, or Nicaragua, or Florida, or Spain, or Denmark, etc - will you learn?
    Welfare states have more peaceful parenting than non-welfare States.
    Not compared with some fuckwit who thinks black people are too stupid to live in a democracy.
    Maybe you're wrong? Dude, you are always wrong.

    In particular, you are completely wrong about me ever suggesting Hugo wasn't an elected representative. Never did. Also, I am the one who has actually addressed Venezuela's collapse - pointed to reasonable causes, identified actual bad governance, pointed to things that happened in the real world and mistakes that were made by existing people acting in real time - while you parroted "democratic socialism" as if repeating magic words explained anything.
    What do you mean "just like in the USA"? Where is this Swedish scene happening in the US?
     
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    20,137
    LOL

    Nice strawman, but not my argument.
     
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I've LINKED the article from THE PROGRESSIVE.

    What? Let me guess. The Progressive (who gushed all over Hugo only wishing we had a strongman like him running a Progressive Socialistic Utopia here in the USA) specifically stated the Progressive case for Democratic Socialism in Venezuela. You know, the whole 'Econ 101' and 'history shows....' arguments? THEY USED THEM!

    Talk about selective memory.

    Let me guess, the people at The Progressive .... They're NOT TRUE PROGRESSIVES!!

    LOL

    You argued Venezuela had an economy based on oil. AND? They also have an average IQ of 84. These two things are not mutually exclusive. Take North Korea as an example. They are full-tard socialists. The Workers Paradise. They lack the calories to even reach their full physical height requirements for their stupid army (they solved this problem by lowering the the height requirement - exactly as I've seen done in medical school exit exams - not so ironically enough. Not smurt enough? No problem, lower the requirements! Problem solved!). North Koreans created a number of nuclear weapons. They have a general IQ of 105 or greater. You don't oh... I don't know, think that maybe the two might, just maybe, could be related to one another? Oh, I don't know, maybe a society with an average IQ of 65 lacks enough members to create the institutions that lead to splitting the atom?

    LOL

    For the most part, IQ is genetic. Pretending this has no effect on the sorts of societies that develop is not reasonable. What is reasonable? It's reasonable to suggest that the high IQ members of a society with an average IQ of 65; that they may develop 'cultures' to deal with and organize low IQ people (with low impulse control and low motivation) via superstitions and clothing. For example, they may require that woman remain fully clothed head to toe and that they are always in the company of a male relative because if not, the low impulse control low IQ male members rape them. They may make up a scary God creature that watches over people and punishes them. You know, the sort of stuff a useful idiot would fall for. So maybe, just maybe, they might not rape innocent women and children for fear of Sky Daddy's wrath. You may want to add a little carrot. Like 72 virgins in heaven. Just do good here and now. What? You don't think these silly ideas are in place for high IQ people to deal with low IQ people? Give me break. This is EXACTLY why they are in place. I mean, some (like the virgins) are so obvious even YOU can't see past their origin. I mean, jesus.

    Now, when these high IQ individuals get scholarships and come to countries with average IQs of 95, they fit in well. Of course they do. They have the g needed to do so. Iran has an average IQ of 85 or so. I know an individual Iranian girl, who has an IQ off the charts. She fits in well in the USA. Of course, she has the IQ to. Whereas a low IQ Iranian, may not. And they'll see bigotry and conspiracies at every turn. Which is where YOU come in. Because YOU'RE doing this.


    What seems reasonable and in line with the biological evidence and social observations is that average IQ plays an important role in the types of social norms that develop. But, perhaps you're a cultural relativist? Japanese tea ceremony and passing a crack pipe in Flint - pretty much the same huh? LOL
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2016
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    22,685
    "Not compared with some fuckwit who thinks black people are too stupid to live in a democracy."
    It is exactly your argument.
    What's your point? That you can read and write and find articles in magazines?
    So is height. Your argument does not follow, is the problem - just as it does not follow for height. You are making an error of reasoning, on top of your counterfactual historical claims of past IQ levels.
    They or something very like them were in place to deal with the genetic ancestors of every single functioning democracy on the planet, normally at the very time they established their functioning democracy.
    India and Pakistan created a number of nuclear weapons - and theirs, unlike North Korea's, actually work. India's average IQ is 82. Pakistan's is 84. Iran is apparently next in line - 84.

    The average IQ in the US when it developed the very first nuclear weapon was around 88 modern, maybe a bit less. The Soviet's would probably have been similar - although we have some evidence it might have been much higher: http://akarlin.com/2012/04/geography-of-russias-iq/ So maybe their higher IQ is what helped them avoid a functioning democracy? There's a clear negative correlation, after all - very few of the highest IQ countries developed functioning democracies until very recently and uncertainly, and none except under duress.

    And it's possible that North Korea's is similar - nobody's tested them in many decades, and malnutrition is significant.
    http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/16039/does-north-korea-have-the-third-highest-iq
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2016
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    20,137
    ANY group of people, with an average IQ of 95 or greater, can create and maintain the social institutions that uphold democratic institutions. Regardless of skin tone.

    The IQ is an objective measure - anyone, regardless of skin tone, eye or hair color, can obtain an accurate score for their IQ. A large group of people living together, can be averaged.

    The argument is: For a society to create and maintain democratic institutions, they require an average IQ of at least 95. This says nothing of being prosperous. That requires law, freedom and sound money. If it is true, then it is true. If it is not true. Then it is not true.

    Pretty simple really.

    Plenty of evidence supports the hypothesis. With more data (particularly genetic) the hypothesis can be refined and over time better model reality. This is called science. Pretending something isn't true because you don't want it to be true is called cognitive bias. Not science. Anti-science.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
  17. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    20,137
    Out of curiosity: It is your contention that a society with an IQ of 65 can build and maintain all of the institutions needed in a democracy?
     
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    At UC Berkeley, E. Asian Americans make up 42.3 percent of the student cohort. White students, with their White Privilege, make up 28.4 percent (incidentally, white males pay most of the tax, for the public services, their kids are not enjoying, for the good of the roads, but I digress). E. Asians have an average IQ of 105. IOWs, if you pulled an E. Asian out of the population, and had to guess what their IQ was, you'd have the best chance of guessing correctly, if you guessed 105. While it is true, some E. Asians have IQ's of 65 and others 165, the average works out to 105. White students of European ancestry have an average IQ of 99.

    BOTH groups are American - they share the same culture.

    Please explain why it is, that Asian Americans, who are only 3-5% of the population, vastly outnumber all other categories of people at UC Berkeley?

    Let me guess, it's all one big conspiracy.

    LOL


    OR.... as the objective measurements would suggest, E. Asians were selected for traits (such as the mental representation of spatial coordinates across a glacial white tundra) that correlate to a relative higher IQ and are as such selected for in our top-down Government run pump and dump school system. Thus, E. Asians end up vastly over represented in a tick-in-the-box Government University.
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    22,685
    And as has been pointed out to five times now, it's not true. We have many counterexamples, right in front of us. Dozens of societies with average IQs of 90 or less have created and maintained democratic institutions - every single modern functioning democracy, unless you can find a counterexample.
    East Asia does not have very many functioning democratic institutions, and the ones it has were established by lower IQ colonial powers.

    So maybe a high average IQ is a handicap for a democracy, and leads to oppressive and totalitarian rule - the kinds of governments we see all over Asia. That's what you appear to be arguing, anyway.
     
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    22,685
    But you can't use it to calculate an "average" score in a socially defined population, and use that to compare different socially defined populations. You will make the same mistake the people who classified racial groups by height made.

    For example: You have never seen a genetic interpretation of an IQ score average for a US population that was corrected for measured childhood lead exposure.
    Or childhood economic inequality.
    Or prenatal medical care.
    Or social stress.
     
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Replace socially defined population with Nation State Citizenship if it helps with your understanding. The average IQ of the Citizens in a Nation State must be at least 95 in order for said State to remain democratic. I wouldn't suggest that the Kings who ran the colonial powers were exactly democratic, but, whatever their IQ score on a 'modern' IQ test, their g would be 75-85% genetic, and correspond with an average of 100 on an IQ test. Yes, I know you want to crap on about the Flynn effect - sorry, but there the truth is, most of what IQ measures is genetic. The Flynn effect was probably, for the most part, measuring an effect of Government School standardized testing exposure.

    Not that any of this matters to the Progressive Socialists of Venezuela stuck eating their zoo keepers. It appears that on the whole, they lacked the foresight to understand your ECON 101 lectures. And stupidly elected a Strongman bullshitter (See: B.Sanders for a Noodle-Arm equivalent here in the USA) - who himself, was apparently dumbstruck when he discovered, wholly shit batman, we're running out of free-stuff. Why did they elect a Strongman who promised them free-shit when any ECON 101 text could tell them that this would all end with them eating their zoo keepers? Well, maybe the average voting Citizen was too limited in their g to be bothered to read said text, and/or couldn't care, and/or couldn't understand it if they tried. Possibly related to their relative low general IQ in the mid-80s.

    I feel sorry for the high IQ people trapped in Venezuela. In the past I'd suggest they come to the USA. Brain drain

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    Now I'd say: Look East Young Man!

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    No level of IQ can save society from the horrors of Socialism. Including ours.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Ok.

    So it reads: "But you can't use it to calculate an "average" score in a Nation State Citizenship, and use that to compare different Nation State Citizenships. You will make the same mistake the people who classified racial groups by height made." I doubt my understanding is much affected by specifying the population involved - the general fact is more, rather than less, informative.
    Likewise tape measures of height. It's your reasoning that is at fault here, not your factoid. For once.

    Try to pay attention - this is something you are capable of learning about, if you bear down just a little, and you will quit posting some of the sillier of your nonsense if you do.
    No, it isn't. It was and is measured independently of standardized testing exposure, and across a planet-wide selection of school systems.
    That is in conflict with some rather obvious evidence, to the point of being contradicted by established fact. None of the long-functioning democracies on this planet were founded or maintained by citizens with an "average" IQ of greater than 90 - that's dozens of counterexamples, and not a single confirming instance.
    As do you. But you have less excuse - you have information, leisure, nobody pointing guns at you or threatening you with starvation if you lose your job. So is your failure a consequence of your low IQ?
     
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    We can agree to disagree. The genetics of intelligence combined with good social experiments will settle this over time. Although, from those I have read, the case is very strong that genetic IQ is required to maintain a modern society, including abstractions like democracy, currency, and etc... needed to run a republic.

    I will say this, IMO, you are doing a disservice to people with low IQ. You're telling them, they are no different than anyone else (of course, not a single major University in the world runs accordingly, but whatever). Thus, when a person of IQ 65 fails to become a nuclear physicist - they begin creating stories. Stores about how they're being held back by those in power. And, sorry to pop your bubble, but the average IQ of all major Nation States have been recorded and can easily be looked up.

    And yes, I understand E. Asian and Jew is not the same as Japanese and Israel. I never claimed they were.


    Anyway, You should take a look at Indonesia right now. My close friend's family were just about murdered two weeks ago for being Christian Chinese. You know, because it's not fair they have all the money and all the good job. Sort of reminds me of how the high IQ Jews of Europe were treated 80 years ago. Probably just one big fat coincidence. The truth is, the Chinese are genetically different, and they do better in society because of that difference (on average). They score higher on IQ tests. They score higher on standardized tests. They are more successful in a modern economy. BUT, because people like you say there is no difference - genetic anyway, people are left creating stories. Stories about evil Chinese Christian Conspiracy's. Which helps justify their murder.
     

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