Desire

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by Rowen, Jan 20, 2003.

  1. linus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    90
    there is a major misconception. it sis not about desire in itself, it is about desire for outcome. expectation.
     
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  3. spookz Banned Banned

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    i desire yesemina. is that so wrong?
     
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  5. exsto_human Transitional Registered Senior Member

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    'Right' and 'Wrong' are conceptions of your ego-self, they are impermanent and have no inherent existence. Desires are impermanent and have no inherent existence. Your ego-self is impermanent and has no inherent existence. All phenomenon are this way.

    Therefore to argue about what is right to be desired and what is wrong to be desired only leads you deeper into the follys of the world you are enmeshed in, desires ARE but they are not inherent.

    Enlightenment itself is an impermanent phenomenon and can not exist from its own side, it has causes: The release from ignorance. If it existed from its own side it would have no cause. Once it is attained it no longer exists to the conceptual mind perceiving it. Thus it is also with the desires.
    In a sense you must desire to become desireless in order to become so, your desire will lead you to perform the neccesary action, the action is to eliminate the desire.

    'Desire to be desireless' - If there was nothing to be saved from, then why should we be saved?
     
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  7. UnaMi Registered Member

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    15
    that is true, it is not a question of right and wrong, etc...

    the reason for this reasoning is that it isn't normal reasoning. It is a bit abstract and illogical, that is why it is hard to explain. iIll try to clarify how i see it:

    At first, as normal human being, you desire to be desireless, to be enlightend. But on the way to becoming enlightend, you stop "desiring to be desireless", your state of mind changes, and you start to do the work to become desireless without a desire.

    That step is necesary, becouse before you become desireles, you must stop desiring that, else you cannot become desireles while you still "desire to become desireless".

    Off course, your average joe, who decides to seek enlightment and become desireless, will desire enlightment at first. But as he progresses he will begin to stop desiring that, and eventually become enlightend...

    Its not a one second transition, were you desire to become enlightend, and then, at the end of your meditation and trainingachieve it. It is a process, it happens, gradually.

    like a man who trains his muscles, he is not able to lift 1 ton at a second, but as he progresses in his training, he always achieves higher weights, untill he can lift the 1 ton. He becomes stronger and better at weight lifting as he progresses. As a person mediating becomes les desiring as he progresses, until in the end, he desires nothing, and is enlightend.

    I have one question, i do not believe that being desireless = enlightment, am I correct here?
     
  8. NEMESIS Registered Senior Member

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    86
    Dear spookz:

    You may NOT desire yesemina. But in accordance with pure yogic thought, you may have SEX with yesemina. There is a difference.

    Dear Linus:

    You are quite right in that the nature of desire may include desiring a certain outcome or expectation. I feel that most people are confusing, and do confuse desire and action. One can take action. It is impossible to avoid this. But you must avoid outcome, expectation, emotion or any other thought or emotion that would cause you to remain or become “attached” to this action you take. All ties to the world MUST be gotten rid of. That is the underlying tenet behind becoming desireless. However, here is another extremely important facet to this "desireless" state of being. It is the notion that in taking pure action and having no desire, we build and create NO MORE KARMA. Karma binds us to the earth as well as it MUST be repaid.

    Dear exsto human:

    You state “Enlightenment itself is an impermanent phenomenon and can not exist from its own side, it has causes: The release from ignorance.”

    Enlightenment does bring a release from ignorance it is true for ignorance is the cause of ALL misery. However, enlightenment is not an impermanent phenomenon. True enlightenment causes a “BIRTH” of a new person.

    “We are born into the world of nature; our second birth is into the world of spirit.” - Bhagavad Gita

    I have gone into this subject in the Philosophy section, but I will state it here as well. There is buried in yoga the concept of a “hidden” being. The Upanishads celebrate Brahman as “implanted in the cavity of the heart.” The heart itself is referred to as hridayam, or “it is he” who dwells “in the heart.” I suggest to everyone that this is a “real” being and not a temporal one. It is a being of spirit. It is immortal. When this spirit ascends the throne, you may consider yourself enlightened. This being will think, act and IS you. A different you. It is the DIVINE YOU that YOU really are. Not the arrogant imposter living under the false hierarchy constructed by your ego.

    Dear UnaM:

    I believe you are quite right in stating that being desireless does NOT equal enlightenment. As stated earlier, ALL ties with earth must be broken. ALL attachments severed. There are many components of this, not just becoming desireless. For one, we must not "turn" thoughts. This is explained in the Yoga Sutras. It is easily said but not so easily accomplished.

    The end result of all this very arduous work is the emergence of this immortal being, for as stated above, this “hidden” one living in your heart MUST ascend the throne before one can be considered truly enlightened and a Master.

    Sat Nam to all,


    NEMESIS
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2003
  9. Bebelina kospla.com Valued Senior Member

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    5,036
    I doubt that Yesemina agrees.
     
  10. NEMESIS Registered Senior Member

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    86
    I will toast to Yesemina's good sense!
     
  11. UnaMi Registered Member

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    15
    I agree to this, i couldn't have explained it better.
     
  12. exsto_human Transitional Registered Senior Member

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    473
    It is my belief that you are correct in one aspect, enlightenment does cause a 'birth', I however am not enlightened and cannot say much more on this.
    You have however not provided a counter arguement to my statement 'enlightenment is an impermanent phenomenon', the problem is in the way you(and I for that matter) percieve the concept of enlightenment.
    I will try and explain my reasoning to the best of my ability, the state that is found in full enlightenment is a permanent thing, it has no cause and no end. It does not 'begin' with the attainment of enlightenment, infact it is ever present and it is simply something that is realized. 'enlightenment' however is just a word, and it does not exist inherently. If it existed inherently it would have no cause, however it is caused by the realization of the profundity that it itself implys and ends when there is no ego-mind left to preceive it. Emptyness as described by Mahayana Buddhism is the true permanent nature of all phenomenon, the mind that sees this (permanently) is the Buddha-mind, the enlightened mind. This means that to the Buddha-mind 'enlightenment' does not appear as a permanent phenomenon, simply the emptyness of enlightenment(and all else) appears and because this is the true nature of enlightenment, it can correctly be named impermanent.

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  13. NEMESIS Registered Senior Member

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    86
    Dear exsto_human:

    I believe you have provided your own counter argument as you have stated both sides of the coin. So which is it that you believe and which am I to argue?

    To begin with, I follow yogic thought, NOT Buddhism. That might lend a disparity in terminology and viewpoint. Having said that, I find nothing in the above statement as regards Buddhism to disagree with. I am in agreement that the enlightened mind is the permanent mind, part of the immortal being that is born.

    I suggest to you that part of the problem may be semantics and methodology in arriving at how precisely we are using the word, "enlightenment." To me it is the end process. That which occurs when one has this new birth. It does not refer to the process as in, "Boy, I'ma gonna get me some enlightenment today!" One can say they are on the road to enlightenment or learning how to attain this state. In my opinion, this would be proper usage of the term.

    The term enlightened refers to the state of being where one is not dependent on the outside sun for light. It actually means that one has found their own source of light inside. Therefore, when one refers to the state of being empty or emptiness, it refers to no longer being filled with this false light that causes shadows and images to be cast upon the wall of the cave. Without seeing illusion, we can then see truth. In terms of this being always having been there, I can only present this analogy. If I meet someone today should they say to me, "Well, no you couldn't have met me today because I've lived on earth for 20 years?" I suppose another point that you may be making is the "enlightened" mind would not see itself as enlightened? I suggest to you that this is impossible! In seeing only truth one would certainly be able to ascertain the truth in that they were indeed enlightened.

    To tell you the absolute truth in regard to this whole discussion, I find it much more important that we are in agreement about this "birth" that occurs. It's amazing to me that you just accept this without having felt it. I truly admire you for that. As to what this word means, I only use it when referring to the final state of being that one wishes to achieve. If I use the methodology and parameters as defined in your post, I can see your point and can understand why you think the way you do.

    Sat Nam,


    NEMESIS

    …. deadly Night bore Nemesis to afflict mortal men…
     
  14. Correct, however even just a little self-introspection reveals that these feelings are completely external. They are of your body, not of you or of your mind.

    Of course there is no body, no mind, etc, etc.. but you know what I'm saying

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    It is not that it is unnatural to try and fight it off, but undersirable.. it is our bodies urges and desires and our violent nature that needs to be fought off for us to truly advance.

    Mike
     
  15. exsto_human Transitional Registered Senior Member

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    473
    NEMESIS

    Semantics is the main problem in our missunderstanding, and also the different thought systems. Buddhism relys almost completely on cool logics and reasoning while yoga will also employ levels of mysticism, energy transformations, metaphors and esoterics etc...
    Essentialy there is no arguement realy, the methods are different but the result is supposedly the same. Now I am not one to question or judge which is more valid but I will allow myself this little observation, namely in the scope of experiential wisdom yoga I would say is superior to buddhism. I have felt the energy in my chakras etc... Buddhism does not teach any of these things, however buddhism does not deny them either, but rather explains that they are also impermanent phenomenon and are not enlightenment(enlightenment being far beyond all such things).
    Forgive me for my bluntness, I have honestly very limited knowledge of yogic discipline and am making very many presumptions.

    As for the 'birth' you mention I do in no way 'feel' it in the way you might, however I can see how enlightenment or the process of it will lead to a completely new birth of the self, a new life of purity and non-suffering springing from a previous life of suffering. A birth without death if you will.



    I personaly think that it is realy people who have degraded the original perfect teachings of all the great religions, for example Buddhism relys on faith for acceptance of the fact that we are continualy born in samsara, now the concept of reincarnation is a very bold statement to make just out of the blue. Obviously the great masters of the earlier times must have known astral projection and had been able to view their Akashic records for them to know their past lives and their continual suffering. Matters of such weight can never be left to faith alone in my opinion.

    I find it very interesting to disscuss these matters with you nemesis, your input is most wise and the yogic disciplins fascinate me greatly and I hope to learn more about these. However I must cut the arguementation short after this, I think it is more my egos now that are doing all the argueing instead of my true self!

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  16. oscar confusoid Registered Senior Member

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    315
    ...how about...

    I know that I want something, but I am not too sure what it is I want, and if I do not know what I want...then why do I want it?

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  17. Canute Registered Senior Member

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    1,923
    I don't think that's true. Nothing is taken on faith.

    Hmm - that is, not even 'nothing' is taken on faith.

    (PS - This is the best thread I've seen in ages)
     
  18. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,968
    I not sure whether it is possible to be desireless. Are there any examples of desireless-ness?

    Love

    Jan Ardena
     
  19. Mephura Applesauce, bitch... Valued Senior Member

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    1,065
    Hmm...
    I would say: be.
    What i mean by this is more than what it obvious. I shoud explain, as it is not the way, but....

    When we exist in the now, there is no room for desire. Desire is wanting something we do not have. For us to want to have it, we must live in the future. We must say, "I would like to have that which I do not have now."
    It draws you out of when and where you are and leads you to live in place and time that doesn't exist. It cause you to compare and worry.

    Instead of that, be. Exist in the now and react. If you are hungry, eat. If you are tired, sleep. Do not want to eat, or want to sleep. Simply do that which you are doing.

    Be.
     
  20. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    54,036
    Exactly!

    There is no way! How futile! Stop using your mind to change your mind! There is no need to become anything other than what you already are. Pursuing enlightenment is like shopping for money.
     
  21. Mephura Applesauce, bitch... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Silly radioactive spidergoat.

    That is the whole point. To rid one's self of desire, you must exist in a state that is with out want. Rid yourself of the conscious mind, the ego, and be at one with the universe.
    It's only the ego that separates us.
    To be with out being.

    It really isn't that hard to understand. Its just alot harder to do, or even want to do.
    Really, I guess if you want to do it, then you really don't.

    Spidergoat..
    spidergoat.. radioactive Spidergoat.

    Man.. I like that name.
     
  22. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    54,036
    Yeah, you know the origin of the spidergoat? Scientists have placed the gene for spider silk into goats, so that when you milk the goats, you can extract spider silk protiens from it! There was an article in Science News, I think.
     
  23. Awake Just BE! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    136
    Just a couple of quick comments....
    1. The desire to be desireless. I feel that this is like any renunciation that people make. It is not the stopping of something but the letting go. Let me explain. People who smoke will not quit until they decide they are going to. People who become celebate quit having sex when they come to the point that it is no longer a desire that controls their bodies. I feel that the ascetics of the world are extremely powerful over their minds. I know the Buddha taught the middle-way, but he also tried the life of an ascetic.
    2. Enlightenment-I believe the best way to explain enlightenment would be the best epiphany someone could have. Yes, I agree that it something we have to work for and prepare for, but I disagree that it happens gradually. Once it happens it is like "POW, now I understand". IMO, there are also mini-enlightenments. These are not true enlightenment, but little epiphanies to let you know your on course.

    BTW, this is a really good thread.
     

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