Developing equation for fictional force created by rotation

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Ultron, Aug 29, 2021.

  1. Ultron Registered Senior Member

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    To be honest, Im working on my personal physics theory but Im not trying to promote or discuss here my theory. What Im looking is kind of help with math on particular partial problem, which Im not able to solve, but maybe somebody here would know it and would be willing to help. And Im offering 10 000 USD to anybody who would produce the right equation, for which I will pay in case I get Nobel price for the theory. But to be honest, it could take some time and the probability of getting Nobel for my theory is like 1:1 000 000

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    So what Im dealing with is some weird prediction that rotation of any object is causing additional attractive force. Im not trying to convince anybody that such thing really exists, but maybe it could be treated as fictive math problem with physics like description and maybe there is something similar in established mainstream physics, which uses the same or very similar equation.

    Description of the math problem:

    So we have rotating disc, there is violet line and for example we have 1000 points on this violet line. As the disc rotates in direction described by the blue pointed line, every point on violet line is causing an fictive additional force of magnitue for example 1 Newton, which is acting in the direction described by green line. This fictive force has practically unlimited range, so it acts on light years long distance, but it is very small on regular objects, like for example in rotating rotors or whole rotating planets.


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    But here comes the more complicated part which Im not able to describe with equation:
    Lets assume, that on each disc we have for example 6000 violet lines and therefore the forces described by green line do interfere and create places with increased force and different direction of combined vectors of force.

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    So the challenge here is to create some new equation or perhaps use some existing equation used normally for something different, which would describe this changing force depending on the distance from the center of the disc. I would expect some equation which would gain something similar to normal / Gaussian distribution, with almost zero at the center and almost zero at long distance and with reachig the maximum force at the distance around 1,414 of diameter.
     

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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Not sure how anyone could help you.

    If the force is not derived from observation - and therefore has no constraints to meet except what you choose - what is to stop you from just making up an equation that suits your needs?
     
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  5. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    No. Assume an infinite number of violet lines and an infinite number of green lines. The green lines can be determined for any and every point in proximity to the disc. They will be curved, and flow around the discs centre concentrically.

    I'll make landfall in a few hours and with my laptop I'll fix your illustration.
     
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  7. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    In truth it does not matter if the arrows overlap in your diagram. They are an abstract geometry, not physical. The length of the arrow only represents magnitude of the force, nothing else.
    That magnitude only applies to a single point - which you have as the arrow head, although it is conventionally the tail.

    If, aesthetically, you don't like overlapping vectors, simply make them all shorter.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2021
  8. Ultron Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks for looking into my question. In general magnitude of vectors is represented by the length of the line, but in my drawing the green line it is just showing the direction of the force which is acting on long distance along the green line. All green lines represent the same force of the same magnitute of 1 Newton (in this example). So if the diameter of the disc is for example 1 000 meters and an object is lets say 400 meters outside of the disc, it is affected by for example 1600 green line forces / 1600 Newtons, but if it is 1 000 000 meters outside, it is affected only by for example 6 green lines / 6 Newtons. I do understand, that it is hard to understand what I need, because it is not standard physics, but I do need the equation for a process as it is described, I cannot change it at will. It is not about if I like overlapping vectors of force, but it is about how I believe it is.
    Actually I do have partial observational confirmation, but for publishing it I need among other things also this equation. But as I have written, I dont want to discuss here my theory or potential confirmation, because it would be even more complicated and confusing. I would like to discuss just this specific math problem, so you can regard it as abstract geometry problem. Hopefully somebody will pick it up as interesting and unusual math/geometry problem.
     
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    17,126
    If the length doesn't represent the magnitude of the force, then just draw short arrows.

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    But really, there's a correct way to this. Since the disc and the field of force are both symmetrical, you only need to draw one set of arrows. It applies at any (every) angle of rotation.

    What magnitudes of force do you want at what radius? Something like this:

    0 metres (centre) = 0N
    10 metres = .2N
    100m = .4N
    1000m (edge) = 1N
    10km = .4N
    100km = .2N
    1000km = .1N
    1,000,000 = .01N
    etc.

    The problem is, your diagram does not (can not) represent the idea you have in your head. You don't overlap vectors, you sum them.

    This is what you want your diagram to look like:

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    The equation you're looking for will describe the (faint red) curve. The equation will show magnitude of force (Y axis) as a function of distance from centre (X axis),

    The curve I've drawn is only approximate for now, but it will
    • start at 0,0
    • climb to r,n (where r is radius=1 and, n is some max value)
    • approach zero asymptotically at infinity
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2021
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  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    17,126
    One thing I'd still like clarification about for your fictional "Ultron Force".

    Pick a point P anywhere on the disc.
    When the disc is not rotating (left diag.), P feels an "Ultron Force" of zero.
    When the disc starts rotating (right diag.), in what direction does P feel the "Ultron Force" pulling - independent of any other forces, such as centrifugal or centripetal or whatever?


    Is it pulled toward the centre?
    Tangential to the disc's edge in the direction of rotation?
    Other?

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    Your original diagram suggests it pulls tangential to the disc's edge in the direction of rotation.
     
  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    17,126
    BTW, for some light reading, you might consider looking up "frame dragging of a rotating black hole" and see if anything there jives with your ideas.
     
  12. Ultron Registered Senior Member

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    Yes you have to sum the arrows which overlap, advanced version would also take into consideration the angles when summing it up and the changing direction of the sum up. The curve you have drawn looks good, and you get it right with the start at zero, climb to n and approach zero at infinity. I would await that n would be over the surface, like 1,4 of diameter. I would also await that there would not be a pointlike peak, rather smooth rounded like.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2021
  13. Ultron Registered Senior Member

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    245
    Yes, not rotating means zero force. Yes, it pulls tangential in the direction of rotation.
    This fictional force is independent, but surely it does not cancel any other forces like gravity or centrifugal force, it just contributes to other forces.

    To get a better visualisation of final direction or how it would work, look at Saturn innermost region of its disc, where in my interpretation combination of this force and gravity can be seen, it is creating amazing looking pattern of spirals:

     
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    17,126
    Sorry, that's not the way a field works.

    Pick a single point a.
    Determine the total direction and magnitude (i.e. the vector) of the "Ultron Force" at point a.
    Draw point a's vector.
    Pick another point b.
    Determine the total direction and magnitude of the "Ultron Force" at point b.
    Draw point b's vector.


    Are you sure you don't mean radius?

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    This really is a fictional force isn't it?

    The peak I drew occurs at the boundary edge of the disc, a logical place for a change in value. A curved peak you describe - out in the middle of nowhere - would have no cause - no physical reason to change its slope.
     
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  15. Ultron Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, you are right, but this is the more complicated advanced version, which is nice to have, but some basic approximation with only number of combined green lines from geometrical point of view would also do.

    Sorry for silly mistake, I meant radius. English is not my native language, sometimes I make mistakes.

    I suggest to handle it as fictional math problem. When I will have some equation which will fit collected observational data and can be used for calculation needed for building experimental setup, it could change to real, but the probability is very low.

    It is maybe not visible on the drawing, but when I have drawed more detailed pictures per hand, it looks like the peak is above the disc, not on the edge.
     
  16. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    17,126
    Fine but don't confuse the diagram with the reality. Vector lines do not exist in reality and do not intersect each other.

    Your Ultron Field will be symmetrical. You could view it turned by 90 degrees, or 10 degrees or .00000000000001 degrees and it would look identical. In other words, there are an infinite number of violet lines. There are also an infinite number of green lines - and they still won't intersect.

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    Trust me, I am.

    I'm pretending you're writing a fantasy sci-fi novel, and you want some weird exotic physics to write in.

    What do you you mean? Are you saying you have a sketch?
    Take a pic and post it.
     
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  17. Ultron Registered Senior Member

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    Yes it will be symmetrical, there is no doubt about it. Similar the the spirals around the Saturn in the video. But if you have infinite number of violet lines with infinite number of real force green lines attached to it, you will get infinite force all around it, which cant be real. Theoretically the force is caused by every single particle in the disc, but it is important to have a finite number, otherwise you get infinity force or singularity, which is not what I want or expect.

    Thats perfect, maybe I will promote it first as scifi novel, before trying to publish it in a journal

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    Dont have the sketch with me, Im on vacation right now, but will maybe draw another later and make picture of it.
     
  18. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    17,126
    No. You do not sum the forces represented by the green lines. Each green line is already the total "Ultron Force" at that point.

    You are mixing up the diagram with the reality.
    Each green line is representing the total "Ultron Force" at that point.

    This is basic vector geometry.

    You my have to face the fact that you have a lot more math to learn before you are equipped the tools necessary to develop your own theory.
    Without math to support it, its not a theory; it's just a picture in your head.
     
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  19. Ultron Registered Senior Member

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    Actually if this force would really exist, it would maybe explain the galaxy rotation curve without need for dark matter. But this is even more complicated to calculate, there would be like compounding factor, like rotation of central black hole forces the accretion disc to rotate faster and this would force surrounding stars to rotate faster and on and on, until you get non Newtonian rotation curve. But this is far ahead, at the moment I just need a simple approximation for simple disc and then will start to work in my garage on experimental setup. Or not, if the calculation based on equation will show, that the sensitivity needed is beyond my garage equipment

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  20. Ultron Registered Senior Member

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    I freely admit, that this part of math is beyond my capabilities and Im trying to find somebody who would be willing to help me. Its kind of Faraday Maxwell situation, where Faraday had visualised lines of force and while others rejected his idea, Maxwell turned it into very succesful equations.
     
  21. Ultron Registered Senior Member

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    The sketch is horrible, but this the best I can do:

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  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Sure. But you can't just make up a force and say it fits the data, and not have a model for the force.

    How far did you get in school?
     
  23. Ultron Registered Senior Member

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    I have master in economic informatics and Im quite good in financial math, statistics, probability, made structured financial products, everything I did was without mistake and profitable. My data analyses are good, generally Im good in seeing patterns in data. But Im quite poor on geometry, vectors, tensors, integrals and so on.
     

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